wives submitting??

[Kabowd]

Super Jew you rock! That's exactly what I was trying to point out...much of the Scripture must be interpreted and taken in context. That's how I view the "submission" bits - just the context that the male authors of the various books had at the time. The Bible is filled with it. Doesn't make it any less important, it's just worth paying attention to.

Biblical mandates (especially regarding family and ministry) are not subject to cultural differences. Leadership within the church and family are foundational principles which are unchanging, regardless of cultural trends. While I certainly agree that Scripture must be viewed within context, this does not mean we disregard certain commands because it isn't the current "trend". God's Word is not a buffet where you can pick and choose which commands you want to follow and which ones you want to disobey because you find them to be "outdated".

[georgesbluegirl]

Has nothing to do with pride.

I am a believer, as I already stated.

Then why don't you follow the mandate that I already stated from Corinthians, regardless of the context and interpretation? Or do you?

The Bible also tells us that a priest's daughter who has been "whoring" must be burned. That sounds like a man - by that I mean HUMAN - writing to me.

[dwinkjr]

Has nothing to do with pride.

I am a believer, as I already stated.

Then why don't you follow the mandate that I already stated from Corinthians, regardless of the context and interpretation? Or do you?

The Bible also tells us that a priest's daughter who has been "whoring" must be burned. That sounds like a man - by that I mean HUMAN - writing to me.

1st.. if your gonna tell us the Bible says something please point to the scripture so we can look to it for reference and context.

2nd.. NO part of the Bible was merely "written by men" The Bible is the word of God and was Inspired by him. When you start trying to determine what was and what was not the inspired writing of God, you are now picking and choosing to follow those commands that are only pleasing to you. BTW there was an entire council of religious Scholars led by the Holy Spirit who sat down and sorted through ALL of the Scrolls that were claimed to be inspired writings and Compiled the ones that truly were into what we now call the New Testament. So are you saying you know more about History and Analyzing writings then an entire council of scholars? Everything that is in your New Testament of your Bible has been found to be the writings Inspired of God himself. Who are you to claim they are not? It has been preserved for over 1600 yrs in its current form and you think you can now choose what is inspired and what is not? Sorry but I will concede to the experts on this one

3rd.. If you can show us how, Wives Submitting to there husbands is taken out of context, please do.

I am not trying to come across rude and I apologize if I have. But I think you have some kind of preconcieved notion of what "Submission" is. Women are not to be a doormat, nor do they submit to there Husband if he goes against the word of God. Wives are to submit to there husbands...(heres the important part, so read carefully) AS THERE HUSBANDS SUBMIT TO GOD. Just in case you didn't get that last part it says AS THERE HUSBANDS SUBMIT TO GOD. So therefore as LadyC has stated as well as some others, in submitting to your husband you are submitting to God WITH your husband.

God Bless,

Dave

[georgesbluegirl]

The specific passage I was referring to was 1 Corinthians 14:33-35,37

"As in all the churches of the holy ones, women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church...If anyone thinks that he is a prophet or a spiritual person, he should recognize that what I am writing to you is a commandment of the Lord."

As Super Jew pointed out, this was aimed at women who would distract people by talking during prayer. I guess that's why we don't hear much about the no-women-talking rule these days? But to say that its null because of its context is interpretation, which is what I am stressing - subordination was context of the time, so you have to take that (like many other things) into consideration when reading the Holy Bible. It doesn't make it any less holy, but it does show you that interpretation and context is sometimes useful and necessary. I know I as a Catholic believe differently about the Bible as many people here do, but it just seems obvious that you HAVE to consider the people writing the books when reading them.

"A woman must receive instruction silently and under complete control. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet."

- 1 Timothy 2:11-12

"A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death."

- Leviticus 21:9

And really, Mary Magdalene is a great example. Guess what? Magdalene was never a prostitute! You can find whole books on this - she was one of the earliest disciples, from the tribe of Benjamin and wealthy. She followed Jesus and was his friend, and was probably a "backer" so to speak, of his, so that he could continue to teach and share God's Word. It was the early church fathers who relegated her position to that of a reformed "whore" because many decisions were being made at that time to disinclude women from positions of power. Many other older texts that have to do with Jesus (not just referring to the Gnostic gospels here, but some of the accounts that aren't in the Bible and historical records of the time) explain Magdalene's real identity.

[georgesbluegirl]

FYI...I do know what you're talking about, I've seen Christian marriages in which the wife submits to the husband many times, my best friend's parents for example. I do have context here, and I understand that the wife is not a "doormat!" I still, however, disagree with it.

[dwinkjr]

FYI...I do know what you're talking about, I've seen Christian marriages in which the wife submits to the husband many times, my best friend's parents for example. I do have context here, and I understand that the wife is not a "doormat!" I still, however, disagree with it.

Then your disagreement is with God and you should take it before him.

I havn't seen anybody here say that women cannot instruct, teach, share the Gosple. But the bottom line is God has set a standard that he wishes to have followed, and that standard is a Wife that submits to her husband (once again) AS HE SUBMITS TO GOD. So what is the issue here? You are submitting to the will of GOD in agreement with your husband. I'm Sorry but there cannot be 2 heads of the house. Otherwise you will find you reach a deadlock on decisions and nothing ever gets accomplished, you spend more time arguing about a task then it actually takes to complete said task. Somebody has to submit, and the Bible(God's Word) is very clear on where that submission takes place. Again if you choose to disagree then your disagreement is with God.

BTW You still have not shown how wives submitting is taken out of context. Or replied to the facts that debunk your "Sound like the word of men" comment.

God Bless,

Dave

[johnP]

I'd love to join in this thread and have been following it since it started.

If you could, as dwinkjr says, please quote scripture. I'm still not sure where it's coming from.

georgesbluegirl is I believe correct in her assertion of equality between men and women and it is scriptural.

With respect, artsylady is I believe wrong to say, "The man is supposed to be the leader of the family because someone needs to be and God chose the man."

I have been on another discussion forum recently where this was discussed and I think I have a valuable contribution to make but I cannot seem to get a handle on this one.

Tess said, "Biblical mandates (especially regarding family and ministry) are not subject to cultural differences. Leadership within the church and family are foundational principles which are unchanging, regardless of cultural trends."

Of course God commands mankind, but situations change and so do the commands. The commands He gave to Israel in the way they were to work as a nation under God do not apply to us necessarily. The burning of anyone is not to be applied any longer.

Leadership is not sex dependant as scripture demonstrates time and again.

That's better georgesbluegirl. Whether she was a prostitute or not makes no difference to her ability to lead, we are all sinners. But let us keep it to scripture alone.

It is men that want women to be put in their place and women like it like that. Gen 3:16 ...Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

This was a prophecy not a command.

The body of Christ has one head, Eph 1:10.

1 Timothy 2:11-12 is a local command from Paul because the situation required it. Proof of this is found at John 20:17 where Mary is told by Jesus to go and preach the good news to the disciples. She preached to the Apostles that Jesus was risen and directed them to go and meet Him in Galilee.

If the verses in Timothy are meant to be that women were not allowed to teach then it contradicts scripture and we don

[tilly]

My DH thinks that part of the scripture that says..."the woman is the helpmeet"= means, she helps him in things, ironing, cleaning house, having all his clothes ready.

that really gets me goat! :oww:

Edited August 24, 2004 by tilly

[Nicks Girl]

Georgesbluegirl, you said: "Someone explain to me how submitting to your husband makes God happy."

Let's start by asking why it is you want to know. Do you truly desire satisfying your God? That is an admirable claim. And such a claim must be backed up by a willingness to humbly reconsider all presuppositions of God, His Word, and the application by which He expects us attain from our studies and also the practical lessons of fellowship.

I notice you present yourself as having already attained enough knowledge of the Word of God, and needing only others' opinions to complete these theories. You asked to hear opinions other than Scripture because you have, "already read all of Scripture." Some lived up to your guidelines, while others, in their child-like faith in God, remembered the eternal legitimacy of His Word vs. the philosophies of modernism.

I ask you... when is it alright to suppose that any human intellect or literature may supercede the infallible Word of God? Really, who cares about our opinions! I would rather you submit to the truths of God than believe me. However, if your peer is speaking God's truth, do not be so quick to hold on to your own opinions; submit to another. We are told to submit ourselves one to another, because it is the mind of God we bow to, and not the mind of another. To make this point bolder: we each suffer from sin and a limited grasp of the universe. To lean so heavily on your opinions, or ours, is to subjugate the omniciency of God, the Author with which you dispute; the very One who purchased us.

Myself, a student of English literature, Biblical apologetics, and Koinh Greek, I find it appallingly curious that one would place the works of a man, William Shakespeare, against the very God, and only Author in Whom there is no turning. Scripture, in the originality of context in its Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koinh Greek, is indisputably, purely right; all the time. No kidding. Truly, William Shakespeare was a genius in his circle. But even that has come into question: many scholars accuse your "genius" of plagiarism. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant. God is still the only Author Who has remained divinely consistent through the millennia.

God wasn't haphazardly writing His book when He defined the truths you call into question. He didn't forget to plan for the change in cultural relevancy that would take place over nearly two thousand years. What He did say was for you to remember this: "But know this first of all, that no truth of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation," (2 Peter 1:20). God doesn't change, and He isn't so stupid as to leave Himself up for surprise by a few modernist beliefs. I'd hate to believe God to say, "Oops... didn't see that one coming: They're 'enlightened now!'"

Why don't you try God's guidelines in faith before you seek to discredit them with supposed, modern enlightenments.

To conclude that change in culture equals change in application of Scripture, is as dumb as the following scenario:

Culture changes to popularize suicide as a very holy act. The logic in your modernistic argument would lead one to conclude that Judas was a holy man.

Backpaddling a few thousand years... the God who would later send His Son to die for you, designs a nation for His own good pleasure: Israel. In that nation He designs laws that, today, conflict with your modern views. This God concludes that sin is worthy of death. You conclude that prostitution should be dealt with differently. God concludes that homosexuality is a perversion worthy of death. America celebrates homosexuality by desecrating God's holy institution of marriage between a man and a woman.

The levitical laws are, as Paul said, for the lawbreaker. Under grace, your God came down and suffered for all of these things in your place.

Now, I don't know what to believe about your claims to spiritual affiliation:

In your second post to this thread, you said, "no, we're not Catholic" (Posted: Aug 23 2004, 12:09 PM).

In a later post on page 3 of this thread, you said, "I know I as a Catholic believe differently about the Bible as many people here do" (Posted: Aug 24 2004, 09:54 AM).

Judging by this inconsistency I am led to further doubt the validity of your argument. Perhaps it was a typo? Perhaps not.

Now, the passages you bring up about gender roles in the body of Christ are best looked at through the ultimate intentions of their original language. That is their only true context.

Koinh Greek is so profoundly superior to English that we often lack the words to appropriately translate the New Testament. Our understanding of submission is to be subordinate. Most lexicons will translate the word hupatosso as that. I believe it is our fault for interpreting that through the eyes of our culture. We need to research the meaning of the word at the time of its usage. We also need to research the heart of Christ and of the Apostle Paul, understanding that only in Christ has there ever been true liberation for either gender.

We must look towards Christ; He is far more important than our pride. We have to realize that the only way to please God is by faith. Getting all the facts straight won't do a thing; even all knowledge and wisdom will pass away.

Forget all that you know or think to know, and bend your knee to God. Be willing to be proven wrong by Him. Philosophy is garbage. And psychology is not a science. They are worthless against the Word of God.

And nobody in their right mind can claim to know the Bible inside and out. The more I learn from the Bible, the more I find there is to learn. When we truly read the Word of God, we find that it reads us. It is sharper than any double-edged sword. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart of man... and woman.

In the love of Christ,

Deirdre's husband Nick

[Shelby]

You know submitting isn't a bad word. It is a very loving, honoring, and holy thing to do. It does not mean to obey every command given. It is about helping your husband to be the best Christian possible. God has appointed man as the spiritual leader of his home. I am a woman, as well as an ordained minister. My husband is not, but he is still the spiritual head of my home. We both strive to lift eachother up. Just as God asks us to submit to our husbands, he tells man to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Christ loved the church, he sacrificed, died, and spent all the time he could nurturing and making sure that all were safe and secure and knew exactly what God would have for them. They are parallel, if one of them is not doing their job, the both of them will suffer. It is not a one way street.

Submission is a Holy word. It does not mean to obey.

I am happy to submit to my husband. And out of love he listens to me and accepts my opinions and thoughts and uses them to make decisions. Usually we make decisions together, but there do come times when he does, and he thinks of me in making those decisions and trys to make to best decision for both of us. We have influence over our husbands, and we need to make sure our motivation for influence is a holy one. I never feel like a slave, or jaded I feel so special, and like my husband loves me more than anything. He would do anything for me, including sacrificing himself or his ideas for me. Both are sacrificial, and the co-inside with eachother.

GBU and may God reveal to you the Glory and Honor and Peace received when you submit to His authority.