The Pre-trib Fallacy

[John3;16]

Dad ernie

1 Timothy 4:1-11 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

The Lord pointed out that these that departed from the faith, were forbidding to marry, commanding to obstain from meats, are you referring to the Catholics?, I don't know of any trend of pre tribulation believers who forbid any to marry, or obstain from meats.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

verse four continues to reveal that God has blessed all creatures not just those which were clean according to the law of Moses, that if we recieve it with thanksgiving it is not to be refused. verse five it is santafied by by the word of God and prayer, still don't see the connection with pre-tribers, verse six he encourges those who recieve this truth, to teach those who are either unaware or entering into this restriction of meat, alot of the early christians came out of Idolatry, where animals were sacrificed to Idols and they would refuse to eat any meat offered to them, (the remaing meat sold in markets), and as you see in verse nine the object of prevous verses is revealed,

because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

Matthew|13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them,

saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed

good seed in his field:

Matthew|13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed

tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Matthew|13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought

forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Matthew|13:27 So the servants of the householder came and

said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field?

from whence then hath it tares?

Matthew|13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.

The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and

gather them up?

Matthew|13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the

tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Matthew|13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and

in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye

together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn

them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I know you have passion in what you believe is truth in regards to eschatology, but keep in mind that the Apostle Paul (Saul) also had passion when he persecuted the church. I don

[jc49]

WORKS....WORKS...WORKS...it seems to me that the MOST DIFFICULT THING for the christian is TO ACCEPT that we are saved BY GRACE,GRACE,GRACE,GRACE,GRACE,GRACE....before the foundation of the world,in eternity past(so to say)...it happens here,in space and time for us,cause we are by nature limited here,nonetheless happens here and now that blessed day that the lost sinner(me) hears the gospel(wonderful gospel of Grace) and by THE SHEER POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT gets convinced of sin ,righteousness and judgment and led TO THE SON,to the CROSS first.to the EMPTY TOMB second and finally in the ARMS OF THE FATHER and there THE LOST SINNER(me) becomes A child of GOD,washed,purified and set apart....and from that moment on looks FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE of HIS APPEARING...and yes,the newly born child of God prays,reads the Bible,witnesses,gets bashed by friends and relatives that DON'T want abandon the city of death,and gets persecuted DAILY,HOURLY by his own flesh,by the world and the devil,experiments TRIALS and TRIBULATIONS,as JESUS said,but also finds COMFORT and SOLACE and STRENGHT and encouragement in THE BLESSED TRIUNE GOD and His faithful servants...and the child of GOD goes on and on SUSTAINED BY HIS GRACE and LOVE....and the child of GOD is happy that THE FATHER and JESUS have in THEIR HAND,and THE HOLY SPIRIT with HIS GIFTS and POWER sustains him,no matter whaat..and the child of GOD KEEPS LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE of HIS APPEARING...but..but..then come along those who say that GRACE is not enough,that we must be purified in the fire of THE GREAT TRIBULATION.....a TRIBULATION that is also called JACOB's TROUBLE...and fear substitutes FAITH and GLOOM taakes the plaace of JOY....

We are not blind brothers and sisters...IF we belong to HIM NOW,HIS WORD and HIS SPIRIT will keep us ,even if we are TOTAL FAILURES in ourselves (me)...IT IS ALL BOUT JESUS and HIS IMMENSE GRACE and POWER to SAVE (and KEEP SAVED those HE SAVES BY GRACE) to THE UTTERMOST,of the world and of life...Remember that after Romans 7...there is ROMANS 8 !!! PRAISE THE LORD....

I'M LOOKING FOR THE BLESSED HOPEof HIS APPEARING...are YOU?

GOD BLESS US ALL,HALLELUYAH

[Old Timer]

jc49, AMEN!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings jc49,

Unfortunately there is no precedence for you to escape the coming "great tribulation". Israel did not escape it, Jesus did not escape it, the disciples did not escape it, and all the martyrs from the cross forward DO NOT ESCAPE IT. You are deluding yourself if you think you are any different.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[rancan6776]

okay......im probably going to get rippped by dad for this but here goes...

In the grand scheme of things I am just a baby christian and I dont think I have been alive long enough to put in the hours of studying the word as has several of you. I have really been wrestling with this debate. I always thought that we would go through the tribulation. just what i was taught. over the past couple of weeks I have really been trying to tie everything together in Revelation. I dont know how many time I have read the letters to the church. but yesterday two things just jumped out and hit me square between the eyes. first....the word "church" is mentioned several times in the first three chapters of Revelation. not once after that. second......the letter to the church of Philadelphia. the very church that we are to model after, right there as plain as day, becasue this church had done the right thing, they were going to spared from the hour of trial that is going to come over the whole earth. no other place is the word "church" associated with this event.....just my .02

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Rancan,

Here is what you referenced:

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

5083 tereo {tay-reh'-o}

from teros (a watch, perhaps akin to 2334); TDNT - 8:140,1174; v

AV - keep 57, reserve 8, observe 4, watch 2, preserve 2, keeper 1,

hold fast 1; 75

1) to attend to carefully, take care of

1a) to guard

1b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is

1c) to observe

1d) to reserve: to undergo something

So how does the Lord do this and what does it actually mean?

TEMPTATION, do you know what that means as pertaining to those last days? Consider this:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Do you see here that in those days, sin shall be so rampant in the world, that the Lord, as He does elsewhere in the scriptures, calls His people OUT OF IT, not by means of the RAPTURE, but by guarding us and keeping us from the sin of the world.

So understanding that, if you do, then this verse becomes even more poignant:

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

As for the church only being mentioned in the first 3 chapters of Revelation, it is because the main "church spirit" of those days is of the Laodician church which will apostasize and become one with the WORLD and will partake of the world's sins and their plagues. Please note the multitude of saints of God that will go THROUGH the "great tribulation":

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Please do not be deceived by the "feel good" fable of the pre-tribbers.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[rancan6776]

i totally understand what you are saying, but i cant help but to think that these temptaions that you speak of are the temptations of the world today and we are able to be kept from them because of our obedience, that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

[Old Timer]

Rancan, you 2 cents is right on target. Even Dad Ernie, in a post somewhere, recognized that the Church was missing from the opening of the seals.

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."

After the things of the Church.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Rancan,

I quoted the verse regarding "coming out of Babylon". This takes place DURING the Great Tribulation. In Matthew, Jesus speaks of many false prophets in those days, and if He did not "cut those days short for the elect's sake, no one would survive".

You are probably too young to remember, but it used to be that a dress or skirt that came up above the ankles identified a "floozy". Today, sex is rampant in every venue you can imagine. Homosexuality used to be hid in the "closet". Today they are pressing the government to recognize their lifestyle as an acceptable "alternative". It used to be that it was rare to find a non-believer. Today they are everywhere. It used to be that Christianity was taught in the schools, but today, prayer and the Bible has been taken out of the classroom.

All this has been done with the tacit nod of Christians, thinking that it can't get any worse, but it ALWAYS does. Babylon is going to be the worst ever. Sin and evil will be on every corner, there will be NO escape from it. The only way Christians are going to "escape it", is to be faithful to Christ and be led by the Holy Spirit. Christ will guard your heart and your mind and you will have the Word of God as both a shield and a sword to defeat the wiles of the evil one.

Yes, delivering from temptation is happening today, but guaranteed we haven't seen anything yet, and as the Greek definition of the word "keep" shows, HE WILL GUARD US AND KEEP US, BUT HE WON'T TAKE US OUT OF IT.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Old Timer]

Rev. 3:10