SAVED or ........SAVED then LOST?

[Guest]

Hi Lanakila,

True, "Justification and sanctification are two separate doctrines." But, does that mean we can be justified without sanctification? Please seriously think about it.

A physical example - air and water are two separate things, without which one could you live?

Justification, sanctification, consecration, etc., etc., are all parts of the workings of God's grace in us, however, the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls.

God's complex creation teaches us that while indeed all things grow toward the sun, nothing is independent from the rest of God's creation. The pure environment is a complex and delicate inter working of governing principles that all (together) promote growth and life of the botanical and animal kingdoms. The health and success of both kingdom still  having direct consequences on human life.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

[Lanakila]

Yes the two doctrines go together,Blindseeker. Thats what I was explaining. Justification first, then sanctification, by the Holy Spirit working in our lives, convicting of sin. I wasn't saying they don't work together, but that they are separate because justification is the initial perfecting at salvation, sanctification follows. I believe in Lordship Salvation also, that if you are saved,that you make Jesus the Lord of your life and the sanctification process begins. John MacArthur teaches this, and he gets it from the passages already discussed here. He doesn't believe that people can lose their salvation and neither do I. I believe from the scriptures that many don't stay with the Lord or His church because they were never of us in the first place. Yes, people can backslide, and do but 1 John teaches clearly against continual living in sin. In other words, I don't believe from the book of 1 John that a born again believer will continue in sin perpetually, without severe judgement of God. In 1 Cor Paul in teaching about communion explains that many sleep because they take communion in an unworthy manner. What does this mean? From my study, its sorta like Annais and Saphira, maybe not as dramatic, but God takes those out of the way sometimes through actual death.

[CWJ]

Amen, Lanakila.

Blindseeker, sorry I might have sounded too harsh, forgive me?

Yes in Him only we are justified AND sanctified. Really at the moment of being saved I believe, although I'll study that, right now i'm don't have any scripture for that.

Another thought is ....do we use OT scriptures in the same light as NT concerning sanctification and justification? As the condition of the Holy Spirit in relationship to believers was different.

John7:39..."(But this spake He of the Holy spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive;  for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yey glorified.)"

Peace to all,Carl

[princecharming]

Very well said, Teri!

[Lanakila]

PC there is no post by Teri in this thread. My name isn't Teri if you were talking to me, if not I guess you just need to wake up, LOL.

[Guest]

Brother Carl,

No offense taken, nor do I wish any toward you. Both your integrity and convictions are obvious. You believe and so you speak. That is the way it should be, how else could we reason these things?

In regards to your concerns of OT times verses NT times:

It is as it has always been, "The just shall live by faith."

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

The only difference now is what God requires for "unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required."

Lu 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Of course that translated into severer consequences.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Peace

(Edited by BlindSeeker at 2:13 pm on April 10, 2002)

[CWJ]

BlindS......let's keep this verse in mind: Luke8:12

"Those by the wayside are they that hear;  Then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe AND BE SAVED."

OK, by this you can "receive" the word into your heart without being TRULY saved, but appearing to be only.

This explains the case in the 2Peter2;20-22 verses.

Heb10:28   "but if any man draw back"...the word in Greek for "draw" is HUPOSTELLO.  This has some meanings such as..to cower or shrink from...to withdraw.....

So we can see that in this case the meaning is of one who was never TRULY saved. They drew back before being spiritually re-born.

Heb 10:29....again we are dealing with one who was never TRULY saved, but had the appearance only.  It's just that here we see the consequences are more severe for blaspheming the Holy Spirit after being so "close".

Here is where I would like to quote a more eloquent writer than myself....not as "proof", not as an authority, but in agreement with my learning on this matter....Matthew Henry:

"They have counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing;  that is, the blood of Christ, with which the covenant was purchased and sealed, and wherewith Christ himself was consecrated, or wherewith the apostate was sanctified, that is, baptized, visibly initiated into the new covenant by baptism, and admitted to the Lord's supper.  Observe, there is a kind of sanctification which persons may partake of and yet fall away:  they may be distinguished by common gifts, and graces, by an outward profession, by a form of godliness, a course of duties, and a set of priveledges, and yet fall away finally.  Men who have seemed before to have the blood of Christ in high esteem may come to account it an unholy thing, no better than the blood of a malefactor, though it was the world's ransom, and every drop of it of infinite value."

Also my question concerning the differences between OT and NT was about the Holy Spirit in particular with respect to John7:39.

I do agree with your statement tieing the two together "the just shall live by faith".

Peace and grace, Carl

[Guest]

Quoted by Lanakila

Yes the two doctrines go together,Blindseeker. Thats what I was explaining. Justification first, then sanctification, by the Holy Spirit working in our lives, convicting of sin. I wasn't saying they don't work together, but that they are separate because justification is the initial perfecting at salvation, sanctification follows.

My response to you was to ask you if you felt they could exist or function effectually without each other, i.e., salvation without sanctification.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

• Quoted by Lanakila
  I believe in Lordship Salvation also, that if you are saved, that you make Jesus the Lord of your life and the sanctification process begins. John MacArthur teaches this, and he gets it from the passages already discussed here. He doesn't believe that people can lose their salvation and neither do I.
  

I am aware of Mr. MacAthur and his ministry.

[Guest]

quote by Carl

BlindS......let's keep this verse in mind: Luke8:12

"Those by the wayside are they that hear; Then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe AND BE SAVED."

OK, by this you can "receive" the word into your heart without being TRULY saved, but appearing to be only.

This explains the case in the 2Peter2;20-22 verses.

Heb10:38 "but if any man draw back"...the word in Greek for "draw" is HUPOSTELLO. This has some meanings such as..to cower or shrink from...to withdraw.....

So we can see that in this case the meaning is of one who was never TRULY saved. They drew back before being spiritually re-born.

[Lanakila]

Blindseeker, I know the context of the passage in 1 Cor, but thanks for refreshing my memory on that. Whenever we take communion in any of the churches I have been a part of it is explained though that taking communion with sin in your heart is also an unworthy manner. I know thats not in context, but Jesus does teach that if you have a gift and at the same time have aught (anger, or problems) against your brother that you should get it right with your brother or sister for that matter before giving the gift. Just a sidebar to this, this passage isn't preached on much because churches are afraid of losing out on funds most likely. In other words, Christians should be in the process of being sanctified all the time, Like I said is taught in 1 John. Anyhow, I did want to clear up any misunderstanding of my statements in my previous post.