SAVED or ........SAVED then LOST?

[CWJ]

Xan, just skim through the thread and you'll find some post concerning "trouble" verses (supposedly for OSAS) which are actually descriptions of apostates. They are the ones that even dwell close to God's word and yet never become re-born.

example...Luke8:12..."Those by the wayside are they that hear:  then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, LEST THEY SHOULD BELIEVE AND BE SAVED."

These are the ones who might even have been pastors.  They can quote scriptures, know the bible by heart, and yet not saved. NEVER having trusted and with repentance placed their total faith in Jesus for salvation, always holding on to some of their own power to "keep" them in grace.(which will never be enuff)  Never surrendering to that Holy Spirit baptism which makes a new creature out of a lost person.  Never letting Jesus make them "born again".

I once had a preacher who admitted to being this exact thing, claiming it was 12 yrs out of bible school until he received Christ.  All this time "leading" a youth ministry.

I'm sure everyone one who is churched knows or has heard about this type of situation. Coming to church but not saved.

Same thing with Templeton. Luke 8:12 describes him, as with 2Peter2:20-22, Hebrews 6:4-9.

As John the Baptist signified the power and importance of Jesus baptising with the Holy Spirit, we MUST understand this re-birth of our spirit-man.  This miracle (Holy Spirit baptism) which enables the Holy Spirit to dwell within our spirit, which has become sin-free due to Jesus.

Gal6:15..."For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but A NEW CREATURE."

Peace, XAN....ask more if you want, I always enjoy talking about the miracles of Jesus..or ..Yeshua!

[Guest Xan]

But Carl, after upon reading Templeton's story it sounded like he really got saved that night.  Luke 8:12 is a very good verse and sums up what I have always believed.  But sometimes we run into people like Templeton that seemed to have really know G-d at one time.  He repented and begged for G-d and if he's not saved then how do we know we are?  If he asked for Jesus to be his savior and it didn't happen, then how do we know if Yeshua heard our cries and saved us?  Before the people on this board go nuts trying to save Xan, I just want to say, "Thanks for caring", but I'm not concerned for my own salvation.  I just don't understand how someone can repent and ask Yeshua to be the L-rd of his life and it not happen, and if it does happen, how does he lose salvation.  I'm starting to think we can't lose our salvation, but we can walk away from it.

[CWJ]

Well....if we can "walk" away by our free will...then we "keep" ourselves in His grace by not "freely" walking away from this grace.

Then the object of faith is not totally Jesus, but also trusting our "free will" to "keep" us in His grace.

We must believe in Him (only)...John3:16

We are "kept" by God...Jude24

We persevere by His power "in" us....Phil2:13

We are saved by His power, not our own...1Cor1:18

OK...that's a very tuff question about Templeton, for we can't judge what happened in his heart, but we CAN judge the fruits.

I think these scriptures portray what may have happened with him:

Look at Matt7:21-23....these are ones who ALSO put trust in their works for salvation....Did Templeton trust in his prayer of salvation, deep down, and his "good works"?  Did he trust in feelings, or experience?  (not enuff)

Did he TRULY trust totally in Jesus?

I think he was not TRULY saved, because of this scripture describing a TRULY saved fruit-bearer:

Heb10:38-39...."Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him....But we are NOT of them who draw back unto perdition:  but of them that BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL."

The right kind of faith is required for re-birth spiritually. A total trust in the Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ. "Not of works". We MUST believe that Jesus saves us, and nothing we do.  We MUST be re-born.

WE WILL KNOW IF WE ARE SAVED!

We have His Spirit..1John4:13

We have scriptures to show us...1John5:13

We WILL bear fruit...Matt13:8

If someone says he knew "in his heart" he was saved but then rejected that truth, he decieved himself:

Jeremiah17:9..."The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

We have not the power to hold on to Jesus, but He has the power to hold onto us.

If we trust in our power to hold on to him, then we trust wrongly, and will weaken and fall.

Peace, Carl

[tsth]

The Parable of the Sower

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Have you noticed what was the defining factor of the one soil that bears fruit?  What was it that made it different???  They all received the seed of the Word.

15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Xan]

I forgot about the parable of the sower.  That makes sense, Suzanne.  Thank you and Carl, too.  I appreciate both of your responses.  Carl, you're response was a little scary, it suggests that we might think we are saved but not truly saved.  To me that's worse than losing one's salvation.

[munari]

Xan,

As I'm sure you know, I believe that one CAN lose their salvation. There are many writings in the Bible by Jesus and Paul. I can cite these later if you want, but I'm just going to go from memory with loose quotes here...

The Bible says that the natural branches (the Jews) have been cut off and you (the Gentiles) have been grafted on... if the natural branches (who were saved by nature of being natural) can be removed, those of you who are grafted (being saved) can also be removed (going from saved to not saved).

Paul makes references to FINISHING the race... implying that the race is ones Christian life. In order for someone to START the race, they must be saved (at some point). Saying that one must finish is stating that one can drop out of the race (and lose their salvation).

And look at Adam and Eve, were they not once saved and then lost their salvation when they sinned? They had God's grace like no one else until Jesus (and Mary in RCC) and no one today has such grace, yet it was stripped from them.

Here are some articles on the topic you might find interesting Xan:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

http://www.catholic.com/library/Reward_and_Merit.asp

[CWJ]

XAN...yeah I guess that came across a little scary at that. I guess what I'm trying to point out is that one might "say" he's saved, and deep down not really being secure in their salvation.... Like the preacher I know that was an example of this.  They even "decieve" themselves by not facing up to their own doubts, until like Templeton, they become full of doubt.  (they don't know that they know that they know that they know that they know.....)

Scriptures are very plain we can know for sure.

Munari you are misinterpreting thoses verse you quoted.

If one was saved......then got un-saved (as munari says)....then WHAT were they EVER SAVED from to begin with???

NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST

munari....can you...show me.....where it says we get un-re-born?

Where God ceases to work in us?

Where we are un-created out of Christ Jesus?

Where we cease to be a child of God?

Most of the verses you will try to use I'm sure have been dealt with in this thread.

The one about being "grafted in"...I will come back after I study that again, but it is NOT concerning salvation.

BORN ONCE, DIE TWICE...BORN TWICE, DIE ONCE

[Rosanne]

Teri,you have made an excellent point.

[munari]

If those verses about being grafted in are not about salvation, what is it then??? I'm going to post the entire Chapter here. Again, I add the bold and the anything in ( )s and any CAPITALIZATION.

Romans 11

1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life."

4 But what is God's response to him? "I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal."

5 So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

6 But if by grace, it is no longer because of works (of Torah); otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened,

8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of deep sleep, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."

9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;

10 let their eyes grow dim so that they may not see, and keep their backs bent forever."

11 Hence I ask, did they stumble so as to fall? Of course not! But through their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make them jealous.

12 Now if their transgression is enrichment for the world, and if their diminished number is enrichment for the Gentiles, how much more their full number.

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry

14 in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not boast against the branches. If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you.

19 Indeed you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20 That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps - "perhaps" is original text) he will not spare you either.

22 See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU REMAIN IN HIS KINDNESS; otherwise you too will be cut off.

23 And they also, f they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.

24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated one, how much more will they who belong to it by nature be grafted back into their own olive tree.

25 I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in,

26 and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob;

27 and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

28 In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs.

29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

30 Just as you once disobeyed God but have now received mercy because of their disobedience,

31 so they have now disobeyed in order that, by virtue of the mercy shown to you, they too may (now) receive mercy.

32 For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways!

34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?"

35 "Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?"

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

This one quote should answer all of you questions to some degree. It shows if we are cut off, God will stop working through us, but it shows we are never "uncreated" in Christ because we can return. And we are all God's children, even the pagans...

[Guest Xan]

Thank you, Carl for the clarification.  I have always believed in OSAS, but not in the way many Baptists believe in it.  The scriptures you have used makes it quite clear that many will hear the gospel and try to use G-d for their own means, and actually thinking they are saved when they are not.  Unfortunately, I think both of my in-laws are like this.  I know I cannot judge their salvation, but what else can one think when one in-law worships a Greek goddess and another does nothing but lies and makes excuses for all his sins?