Spin off From "IS Jesus God" thread in Doctrinal

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ Is God - Part 4 of 5

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Ephesians 3:9 KJV And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 3:9 AMP Also to enlighten all men and make plain to them what is the plan [regarding the Gentiles and providing for the salvation of all men] of the mystery kept hidden through the ages and concealed until now in [the mind of] God Who created all things by Christ Jesus.

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Philippians 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:5-11 AMP Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6 Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9 Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, 10 That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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Colossians 2:9 KJV For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:9 AMP For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

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1 Timothy 1:1-2 KJV Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Timothy 1:1-2 AMP PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus by appointment and command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), our Hope, 2 To Timothy, my true son in the faith: Grace (spiritual blessing and favor), mercy, and [heart] peace [be yours] from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

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1 Timothy 3:16 KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Timothy 3:16 AMP And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [ God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [ Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory.

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1 Timothy 6:14-15 KJV That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

1 Timothy 6:14-15 AMP To keep all His precepts unsullied and flawless, irreproachable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Anointed One), 15 Which [appearing] will be shown forth in His own proper time by the blessed, only Sovereign (Ruler), the King of kings and the Lord of lords,

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Titus 2:13-14 KJV Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 2:13-14 AMP Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One), 14 Who gave Himself on our behalf that He might redeem us (purchase our freedom) from all iniquity and purify for Himself a people [to be peculiarly His own, people who are] eager and enthusiastic about [living a life that is good and filled with] beneficial deeds. [Deut. 14:2; Ps. 130:8; Ezek. 37:23.]

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Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:1-3 AMP IN MANY separate revelations [each of which set forth a portion of the Truth] and in different ways God spoke of old to [our] forefathers in and by the prophets, 2 [but] in the last of these days He has spoken to us in [the person of a] Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also by and through Whom He created the worlds and the reaches of space and the ages of time [ He made, produced, built, operated, and arranged them in order]. 3 He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [ God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,

[nChrist]

Jesus Christ Is God - Part 5 of 5

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Hebrews 1:8-12 KJV But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Hebrews 1:8-12 AMP But as to the Son, He says to Him, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever (to the ages of the ages), and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of absolute righteousness (of justice and straightforwardness). 9 You have loved righteousness [You have delighted in integrity, virtue, and uprightness in purpose, thought, and action] and You have hated lawlessness (injustice and iniquity). Therefore God, [even] Your God (Godhead), has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy and gladness above and beyond Your companions. [Ps. 45:6, 7.] 10 And [further], You, Lord, did lay the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain and continue permanently; they will all grow old and wear out like a garment. 12 Like a mantle [thrown about one's self] You will roll them up, and they will be changed and replaced by others. But You remain the same, and Your years will never end nor come to failure. [Ps. 102:25-27.]

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Hebrews 3:1-4 KJV Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Hebrews 3:1-4 AMP SO THEN, brethren, consecrated and set apart for God, who share in the heavenly calling, [thoughtfully and attentively] consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest Whom we confessed [as ours when we embraced the Christian faith]. 2 [see how] faithful He was to Him Who appointed Him [Apostle and High Priest], as Moses was also faithful in the whole house [of God]. [Num. 12:7.] 3 Yet Jesus has been considered worthy of much greater honor and glory than Moses, just as the builder of a house has more honor than the house [itself]. 4 For [of course] every house is built and furnished by someone, but the Builder of all things and the Furnisher [of the entire equipment of all things] is God.

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2 Peter 1:1-3 KJV Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2 Peter 1:1-3 AMP SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 May grace (God's favor) and peace (which is perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).

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1 John 5:7-8 KJV For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:7-8 AMP So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One; 8 and there are three witnesses on the earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides].

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1 John 5:20 KJV And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1 John 5:20 AMP And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.

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Revelation 17:14 KJV These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 17:14 AMP They will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will triumph over them; for He is Lord of lords and King of kings--and those with Him and on His side are chosen and called [elected] and loyal and faithful followers. [Dan. 2:47.]

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Revelation 19:13-16 KJV 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:13-16 AMP 13 He is dressed in a robe dyed by dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God. 14 And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent). [Ps. 2:9.] 16 And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. [Deut. 10:17; Dan. 2:47.]

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Revelation 22:12-13 KJV 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:12-13 AMP 12 Behold, I am coming soon, and I shall bring My wages and rewards with Me, to repay and render to each one just what his own actions and his own work merit. [isa. 40:10; Jer. 17:10.] 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last (the Before all and the End of all). [isa. 44:6; 48:12.]

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[A Muslim]

Shiloh

I will respond to your post today, but till I come back, I would like to ask a question:

What is your proof that the Jews believed that the anointed Messiah is God not a mere man or even an angel?

As I see like you assume that this is the case and build many consequences on that assumption. Now I am asking about the Jews' point of view not Christians, so please give me what Jewish sources say not what Christian sources say.

Edited November 26, 2010 by A Muslim

[A Muslim]

nChrist

Actually your post is too long to be replied and I don't have the time to reply to all that. That doesn't mean it is irrefutable, but it's too lengthy, so I am sorry if I won't respond although I have responded to some of these points in my conversation with shiloh, you can see our conversation from the beginning and participate in it if you like.

[A Muslim]

DP

Edited November 26, 2010 by A Muslim

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh

I will respond to your post today, but till I come back, I would like to ask a question:

What is your proof that the Jews believed that the anointed Messiah is God not a mere man or even an angel?

As I see like you assume that this is the case and build many consequences on that assumption. Now I am asking about the Jews' point of view not Christians, so please give me what Jewish sources say not what Christian sources say.

I never claimed that the Jews believed that the Messiah would be God. "Messiah" is more of a political title than a Divine or redemptive title. Most Jews today do not believe that the Messiah will be God. The thing is, the Jewish people are not the standard of truth. What they do or do not believe have no bearing on what Scripture says. We follow the Lord and His Word. We don't follow the Jewish people. We love them, but we do not follow them.

It is the Bible that reveals that the Messiah would be God Himself in human form. The Bible presents God alone as Israel's Redeemer and Savior. One of the most important Messianic prophecies demonstrates the Messiah as God:

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

(Isa 9:6-7)

Note the following facts:

This is once, both a prophecy of the first and second comings of Jesus, but I want to draw your attention to the terms "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father." Mighty God in Hebrew is "El Gibbor" and is not, and cannot be a reference to a mere human being. This is a specific reference to Deity. The Hebrew word El depending on the context can either be "El" with a capital E, or it can be "el" with a lower case e. "El Gibor." There is only one "Mighty God." For this child to be anything other than God, would make the attribution of any of these Names to Him in Isaiah 9:6, idolatry.

Secondly, the Father, through the prophet refers to Jesus as "The Everlasting Father." In Hebrew it is rendered, "Avi ad," and literally means, "Father of eternity." Isaiah is not calling Jesus "The Father," he is referring to Jesus as the "Father of eternity." In other words, Jesus is the author of the ages, of all eternity. We use the term Father in similar ways, such as referring to Alexander Graham Bell as the father of modern telecommunications, but the truth is that any example we can offer still falls far short of "Avi ad" because "Avi ad" actually denotes rank and refers more appropriately to Jesus' preeminence in connection with eternity. He is "Father of Eternity" not only in the sense that he is the creator of the ages, but that he is also Lord of the ages. As creator, and architect, He is also the sustainer of that which He created.

This child is a King who will sit on David's throne and His Kingdom will be eternal. This is important to compare this to what the angel Gabriel told His mother Miriam in LUke 1:32-33.

1. He shall be great;

2. He shall be called the Son of the Most High;

3. YHWH will give to Him the throne of David

4. He shall reign over the house of Jacob (Israel) forever

5. His Kingdom will be eternal and will never end.

Our Heavenly Father also has this to say:

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

(Isaiah 42:8)

For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

(Isaiah 48:11)

God says above that He does not share glory with anyone. To ascribe the titles of Isaiah 9:6 to anyone would be give glory to that person. Those are

[A Muslim]

I never claimed that the Jews believed that the Messiah would be God. "Messiah" is more of a political title than a Divine or redemptive title. Most Jews today do not believe that the Messiah will be God. The thing is, the Jewish people are not the standard of truth. What they do or do not believe have no bearing on what Scripture says. We follow the Lord and His Word. We don't follow the Jewish people. We love them, but we do not follow them.

I don't know why you love the Jews that much when they insult Jesus and Mary that way. But anyway, so you know that the Jews never believed that the forecoming Messiah will be God after Jesus came, and it seems that this was also the case before Jesus came as it is so clear even through the Gospels. First of all, you have been talking to me as if proving that Jesus is the Messiah is proving that Jesus is God, which is based on your belief only although the Jews never believed that belief, so when you use the Talmud to prove that Jesus is the Messiah that doesn't prove that Jesus is God, because the writers of the Talmud never believed it that way.

Secondly, which is much more important, is that Jesus was raised in a Jewish environment, and knew how Jews believed, so he must have corrected this misconception, but actually he didn't, you used Isaiah 9:6 as a proof that the Messiah is God. Jesus never used it either in John 10 or elsewhere. Why didn't he use it if it was an absolute evidence the forecoming Messiah is God?

I cannot see that the word El Gibbor means God only, as we know, the word El doesn't necessarily refer to God, and the word Gibbor as well was referred to human beings as in Ezekiel 32:21, the Jews never understood it that way you do, nor did Jesus quote it even once although it would have been an overwhelming evidence that would have refuted any Jew. Besides, this is not God's name as God's name is used with an article the, here it has no article.

Secondly, the Father, through the prophet refers to Jesus as "The Everlasting Father." In Hebrew it is rendered, "Avi ad," and literally means, "Father of eternity."

Well, it seems here that all translators disagree with you, en everlasting father is different than the father of eternity, I have no problem to consider Jesus as an everlasting father, as he is my father as well as all prophets in their deeds. And you cannot call Jesus father as referring to God, as you will be directed to the monarchian heresy.

As for your main post, I see you are just insisting on your opinion concerning John 10:30-39, and in most cases you actually said nothing new, but just repeating yourself and ridiculing me. What you are trying to say is that we need to look to the Gospels as a whole and what Jesus said in other situations, and trying to project this on the verse in question. I have no problem with that, so I will try to focus here on the other scripts you added. I will take some time to reply to the whole post because it is lengthy and I have some other things to do, so please wait till I say that I have finished my reply.

Jesus however remained silent. Again the High Priest addressed Him. "In the name of the ever-living God," he said, "I now put you on your oath. Tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." "I am He," replied Jesus. "But I tell you that, later on, you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND of Omnipotence, AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY." (Mat 26:63-64)

In fact, Jesus takes on two titles: Son of God AND the Son of Man. He uses the common Messianic title and claims to be Deity at His trial. The High Priest tears His robe and they accuse Him of blasphemy and their verdict is that He is to be put to death.

Well, first of all, the Bible says it explicitly:

Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

Secondly, the word "later on" meant a short period, when did this happen?

Thirdly, where does Jesus say that he is God in this verse? If you are going to consider the action of the high priest here, then you must have considered it to believe that Jesus is blaspheming, but you and I know that this man was doing so out of ego otherwise he would have believed in Jesus, this is like fake trials with a foreknown decree, so it is not an evidence in itself.

If these men who are mortal and wicked can be called "elohim" (because they stand to represent God before the people) for a limited period of time, it is not blasphemy for Jesus to call Himself the Son of God because He preexisted the world ("before Abraham was, I AM" Jn. 8:58) with the Father.

This actually is not a proof that Jesus is God because he is eternal, because this language was present in the Bible, it only means that he was in God's foreknowledge, the same as what said concerning Jeremiah and Paul:

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee; I have appointed thee a prophet unto the nations.

Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

The context also proves this when he said before:

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. Joh 8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.

Jesus (Peace be upon him) meant here is that Abraham (Peace be upon him) rejoiced when he knew that Jesus (Peace be upon him) will be from his descendants, and this is clear through the word "my day", he didn't say:"when he saw me", this clearly means that he meant that Abraham knew that he will be raised one day, so he was rejoiced for that day.

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't know why you love the Jews that much when they insult Jesus and Mary that way.

See, Jesus loves the Jews and He forgives them for insulting Him. He forgave His enemies when they crucified Him. So I am following His example. We are to forgive when they insult our religion. That is the way of the true followers of God.

But anyway, so you know that the Jews never believed that the forecoming Messiah will be God after Jesus came, and it seems that this was also the case before Jesus came as it is so clear even through the Gospels. First of all, you have been talking to me as if proving that Jesus is the Messiah is proving that Jesus is God, which is based on your belief only although the Jews never believed that belief, so when you use the Talmud to prove that Jesus is the Messiah that doesn't prove that Jesus is God, because the writers of the Talmud never believed it that way.

I have never even implied that proving Jesus is the Messiah is is proving that He is God. I am simply showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is both Messiah and God. I simply used the Talmud to show that there were signs the Jews were supposed to be looking for that the Messiah would perform.

Secondly, which is much more important, is that Jesus was raised in a Jewish environment, and knew how Jews believed, so he must have corrected this misconception, but actually he didn't,

Jesus came to the world to save us from our sins. Jesus primary purpose on earth was not to prove He was God. Jesus provided enough to demonstrate He was God to anyone who was willing to believe. For those who are dead set against believing no amount of proof would ever be sufficient.

you used Isaiah 9:6 as a proof that the Messiah is God. Jesus never used it either in John 10 or elsewhere. Why didn't he use it if it was an absolute evidence the forecoming Messiah is God?

It doesn't matter if Jesus used it or not. The fact remains that it gives very compelling evidence that Jesus is God. The New Testament writers cite a lot of Old Testament Scripture to show Jesus fulfillment of what was prophesied of the Messiah. We can even see echoes of that prophecy in the words of the angel Gabriel to His mother Miriam as He spoke of Jesus being the Son of God and of His eternal Kingdom.

I cannot see that the word El Gibbor means God only, as we know, the word El doesn't necessarily refer to God, and the word Gibbor as well was referred to human beings as in Ezekiel 32:21,

El as used in the context of Is. 9 direclty refers to God. Gibbor in Hebrew means "mighty." The Jewish Publication Society's translation of the Old Testament (Tenach) translates EL Gibbor as "Mighty God." I speak and read Hebrew amd very familiar with how he words are used.

the Jews never understood it that way you do,

I am pretty familiar with how the Jews understand El Gibbor and sorry, but you are just wrong.

nor did Jesus quote it even once although it would have been an overwhelming evidence that would have refuted any Jew. Besides, this is not God's name as God's name is used with an article the, here it has no article.

In Hebrew proper names do not need a definite article. Definite articles are used on construct nouns; they are not not proper names.

Well, it seems here that all translators disagree with you, en everlasting father is different than the father of eternity,

The translators don't disagree with me. It is unfortunate that the translations don't reflect the level of scholarship we have available to us today, but that is how it is. We have more light on Hebrew now than ever before. The best translation of avi ad is "father of eternity."

I have no problem to consider Jesus as an everlasting father, as he is my father as well as all prophets in their deeds.

Jesus is not your father. Jesus is the Son of God and He is the Savior of those who trust in Him for salvation. Jesus is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. He has absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam.

And you cannot call Jesus father as referring to God, as you will be directed to the monarchian heresy.

Jesus as the father of eternity is not usurping the title of "Father" from God the Father. As applied to Jesus it denotes His role as the Creator and sustainer of the Universe.

[Guest shiloh357]

As for your main post, I see you are just insisting on your opinion concerning John 10:30-39, and in most cases you actually said nothing new, but just repeating yourself and ridiculing me.

I have not ridiculed you at all. But your exegesis of that chapter is very poor and you are employing bad hermeneutics. That is not ridicule. It is just a plain and honest assement of your skills in handling the Bible.

What you are trying to say is that we need to look to the Gospels as a whole and what Jesus said in other situations, and trying to project this on the verse in question.

I am saying that we need to look at the entire Bible. The Bible contains a plethora of references to Jesus as God.

Well, first of all, the Bible says it explicitly:

Numbers 23:19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:

All that verse is saying is that God is not like men who lie. Man cannot be depended on to be honest all of time. Lying, deceit and trickery are part of human nature and God does not possess that aspect human nature. God is not a man who lies or a son of man who goes back on His word. God can be trusted to do exactly what He says He will do.

Secondly, the word "later on" meant a short period, when did this happen?

It is a reference to His second coming when He returns to Jerusalem to destroy the enemies of Israel and establish His Kingdom there.

Thirdly, where does Jesus say that he is God in this verse?

"Again the High Priest addressed Him. "In the name of the ever-living God," he said, "I now put you on your oath. Tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." "I am He," replied Jesus."

If you are going to consider the action of the high priest here, then you must have considered it to believe that Jesus is blaspheming, but you and I know that this man was doing so out of ego otherwise he would have believed in Jesus, this is like fake trials with a foreknown decree, so it is not an evidence in itself.

Jesus admitted that He was God and the High Priest declared that enough for Jesus to be guilty of blasphemy. It is as simple as that. You are trying to muddy the water, but the simple narrative tells us that Jesus claimed to be God and was accused and convicted of blasphemy by His enemies in the Sanhedrin.

This actually is not a proof that Jesus is God because he is eternal, because this language was present in the Bible, it only means that he was in God's foreknowledge, the same as what said concerning Jeremiah and Paul:

Wrong. Jesus did not claim to simply be in God's foreknowledge. Jesus said before Abraham was "I AM" which is a direct reference to deity and in the very next verse, they picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy. You are desparately tryiing to assign false values to the text.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. Joh 8:57 The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.

All those verses are saying is that Abraham who in faith saw the future redemption of man rejoiced.

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."

(Gal 3:7-8)

The text of John 8 does not say that Jesus was just a thought in God foreknowledge but that God prophesied the future redemption to Abraham. Jesus is claiming to have been there with the Father even before Abraham was born. Jesus pre-existed this world with the Father. It was Abraham who only existed in the foreknowledge of God.

[nebula]

What did Jesus say about Himself?

John 6

35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life ; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

1. How can a man make such a claim as this?

2. How could He have "come down from heaven" if He is only a man?

3. Note that Jesus said "believes in Him" (the Son), not "believes in My teaching."

John 6:51 - "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven ; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever ; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

1. How did Jesus come down from heaven if He did not exist before being born on earth?

2. Jesus spoke many times of His death and resurrection. Your Muhammad said Jesus never died. So, if Jesus said He would die but then did not, would that not make Him to be a liar? And if He is a liar, how can He be a prophet to be followed? So how can you believe He never died after He said on many occasions (like here) that He would?