Two Questions For Unbelievers

[Guest shiloh357]

Of course. And your question is strange. I ask evidence to some of my scientists friends too, and nobody is afraid that I

might mock them. I have no intentions to mock anybody or anything, but even if I would, I do not thing you should be

afraid or offended since I have a picture of Christians being very confident in their faith and that things will be settled

at the end of time. Being afraid of mocking is a symptom of insecurity or fear of having ones doubts exposed.

Well I am not in any danger of you exposing anything, as I have no doubts about what I believe. I am far and away more secure in my faith than you are in your unbelief.

Here is the thing. I am not operating from a position of insecurity. I am operating from the position of limited board time and I am not going to waste my time crafting complicated posts and searching for information and trying to answer your questions, if you are not going to take the answers I give seriously. If everything I present is going to be ridiculed and compared to believing in pink unicorns, or summarily dismissed and trampled underfoot, then I am not going to waste my valuable time on you.

I am not in any way afraid of mocking. You pose no threat to me and what I believe whatsoever. I will present why we believe, but I am not trying to "prove" anything. I am simply providing the evidence and our rationale. What you do with hat information up to you.

I think that a civilized debate is helpful to Christians too so that they can consolidate their faith.

Debate is fine and I am more than willing to engage you, but I expect intelligent dialogue an stupid things like "well if God would just create a poka-dotted cat with wings, I would believe in Him" or any other such nonsense. That is the kind of stupidity we have had to deal with in the past, and I will not countenance that garbage in this debate. I am not trying to be harsh; I am just letting you know where the line is drawn.

To make it easier, I can start another thread pertaining to why the Bible is Word of God. Would that be acceptable?

Fine with me. But I am still not sure what you mean when you say you can provide evidence but you are not trying to prove

anything. If evidence is a matter of interpretation or a sort of heart-feeling, then it cannot be considered evidence, at least

in the sense we (and every judge or jury) attribute to this word.

There is a difference between claiming to have evidence and claiming to have proof. The minute you claim you can "prove" something, you have set up a particular level of expectation in the mind of the person you are debating. Many a debater has painted themselves into a corner by claiming to be able to prove something. I am not as loose and free with the word proof. Evidence, by nature is objective. It is not based on mere "interpretation" or feeling.

Evidence is simply data that stands to support my rationale. I don't present evidence to "prove" the existance of God. I present evidence to demnstrate that my belief in God has an evidentiary basis and is not based on mindless, delusional dreams. You may not come to the same conclusion about the evidence as I do, but neither will you be able to accuse me of delusional beliefs that have no rational basis.

I will post the new thread in the main Apologetics forum. Tonight, I wil post introductory information.

[Guest]

You will have to decide for yourself....

Belittling other religious traditions only reflects poorly on yourself.....

Reflecting

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deuteronomy 32:39-49

The Truth

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Exodus 20:3-5

IS The Honorable Thing To Do

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? John 5:44

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Believe

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

Or Not

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:28-29

Love, Joe

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[Guest]

I suppose you can consider the worship of cows and eight-limbed goddesses (Hinduism), or a rather corpulent man with a happy face (Buddhism) or an 'allah' that requires you to kill to show your faithfulness and can offer you no assurances as alternatives to Christianity (islam)......or you can choose to believe you were spat out of the mouth of a capricious and random 'Nature' and therefore worship mother Earth (Wicca). Here is where I bow out, not being a theologian or a Bible scholar. You will have to decide for yourself.

Belittling other religious traditions only reflects poorly on yourself.

Oh? Then please point out the statement I made that is belittling (instead of 100% true) about the religions I mentioned. I'll venture that you can't do so. That poor reflection you're seeing? You're looking into a mirror, Sam...... Arrogant atheists are not a new commodity on this board.

Pretty much your entire post was not factual. I have identified myself as a Christian in one of my early posts, and you guys denigrated my denomination (Methodist) in later posts. Instead of getting into a silly spat, I let it go. I should have realized based on those interactions that since you did not respect mainstream versions Christianity, you would not respect other religions. It seems basic to me that if one expects respect from others, one should be willing to offer respect. Nevertheless, as before when things got "snarky," I don't intend to continue this conversation.

Dear One All Those Other "Ways" Will Kill A Fellow

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deuteronomy 18:20

And Men's Philosophy Lie

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:8-9

Jesus Saves

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

But Dear One Continue

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

Continue

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:22-24

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[doubting_tommy]

With regard to the two questions, we need to distinguish between two kinds of knowledge- a priori knowledge and aposteriori knowledge. A priori truths are those which we know simply because they could not be otherwise assuming that the laws of mathematics and logic hold true (if we

[Guest]

.... So, to answer the two questions- it is possible that the God of the Bible could reveal some things to us so that we could know them for certain the same way that a teacher can explain the rules of mathematics to a student. But these things can be known with certainty by the unbeliever as surely as they can be known by a believer. It is not a contradiction to say that nothing can be known with certainty if we modify the statement to mean 'no aposteriori facts can be known with certainty'....

Certainly

Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Isaiah 6:5

He Loves You

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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Believe

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:30

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Pretty much your entire post was not factual.

I have identified myself as a Christian in one of my early posts, and you guys denigrated my denomination (Methodist) in later posts. Instead of getting into a silly spat, I let it go. I should have realized based on those interactions that since you did not respect mainstream versions Christianity, you would not respect other religions.

It seems basic to me that if one expects respect from others, one should be willing to offer respect. Nevertheless, as before when things got "snarky," I don't intend to continue this conversation.

Don't blame Morning Glory. I was the one that pointed out the fact that there are those in your denom who are marrying homosexuals in defiance of God's Word. I don't respect that kind of activity. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. If you can defend homosexuality over and against what the Bible says, that says alot about your "Christianity." We hold up the word of God over denominations. If that is a problem for you, you may want to reconsider your future here on this board, because we are not ashamed to say that God hates the act of homosexuality, He condemns it and calls it sin. If that makes you angry, your problem is with God and His Word.

[MorningGlory]

Pretty much your entire post was not factual.

Please point out what wasn't factual.

I have identified myself as a Christian in one of my early posts, and you guys denigrated my denomination (Methodist) in later posts.

I'm not sure who 'you guys' refers to but I never said ANYTHING, good or bad, about Methodists. I also see that you are here as a 'nonbeliever'. Your post doesn't make sense.

Instead of getting into a silly spat, I let it go. I should have realized based on those interactions that since you did not respect mainstream versions Christianity, you would not respect other religions.

You're throwing that 'you' around fast and loose, Sam. I have said nothing that disrespects Christianity of any denomination. Please direct those statements to whoever made the comments.

It seems basic to me that if one expects respect from others, one should be willing to offer respect. Nevertheless, as before when things got "snarky," I don't intend to continue this conversation.

Which says more about you than you know. Those who are confident in their beliefs don't run at the first sign of dissension. You can learn from those who think differently than you.

[doubting_tommy]

Pretty much your entire post was not factual.

I have identified myself as a Christian in one of my early posts, and you guys denigrated my denomination (Methodist) in later posts. Instead of getting into a silly spat, I let it go. I should have realized based on those interactions that since you did not respect mainstream versions Christianity, you would not respect other religions.

It seems basic to me that if one expects respect from others, one should be willing to offer respect. Nevertheless, as before when things got "snarky," I don't intend to continue this conversation.

Don't blame Morning Glory. I was the one that pointed out the fact that there are those in your denom who are marrying homosexuals in defiance of God's Word. I don't respect that kind of activity. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. If you can defend homosexuality over and against what the Bible says, that says alot about your "Christianity." We hold up the word of God over denominations. If that is a problem for you, you may want to reconsider your future here on this board, because we are not ashamed to say that God hates the act of homosexuality, He condemns it and calls it sin. If that makes you angry, your problem is with God and His Word.

Out of interest, how would you feel about a homosexual couple who are married (let's say it's a civil marriage) and who do not engage in homosexual acts?

[Guest]

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. Psalms 119:105

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Pretty much your entire post was not factual.

I have identified myself as a Christian in one of my early posts, and you guys denigrated my denomination (Methodist) in later posts. Instead of getting into a silly spat, I let it go. I should have realized based on those interactions that since you did not respect mainstream versions Christianity, you would not respect other religions.

It seems basic to me that if one expects respect from others, one should be willing to offer respect. Nevertheless, as before when things got "snarky," I don't intend to continue this conversation.

Don't blame Morning Glory. I was the one that pointed out the fact that there are those in your denomination who are marrying homosexuals in defiance of God's Word. I don't respect that kind of activity. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. If you can defend homosexuality over and against what the Bible says, that says alot about your "Christianity." We hold up the word of God over denominations. If that is a problem for you, you may want to reconsider your future here on this board, because we are not ashamed to say that God hates the act of homosexuality, He condemns it and calls it sin. If that makes you angry, your problem is with God and His Word.

Out of interest, how would you feel about a homosexual couple who are married (let's say it's a civil marriage) and who do not engage in homosexual acts?

Marriage

And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Genesis 2:21-25

Is Interesting

Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. Proverbs 5:18-19

But Lust

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15

Is Sin

And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray. Proverbs 5:20-23

And Still

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Matthew 9:13

Jesus Calls

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

Come Sinner, Come

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Two

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:19-20

Walks

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

One Truth

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

For Sin Will Kill

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14-12

And Only The LORD Jesus Saves

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: John 11:25

Love, Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

Pretty much your entire post was not factual.

I have identified myself as a Christian in one of my early posts, and you guys denigrated my denomination (Methodist) in later posts. Instead of getting into a silly spat, I let it go. I should have realized based on those interactions that since you did not respect mainstream versions Christianity, you would not respect other religions.

It seems basic to me that if one expects respect from others, one should be willing to offer respect. Nevertheless, as before when things got "snarky," I don't intend to continue this conversation.

Don't blame Morning Glory. I was the one that pointed out the fact that there are those in your denom who are marrying homosexuals in defiance of God's Word. I don't respect that kind of activity. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. If you can defend homosexuality over and against what the Bible says, that says alot about your "Christianity." We hold up the word of God over denominations. If that is a problem for you, you may want to reconsider your future here on this board, because we are not ashamed to say that God hates the act of homosexuality, He condemns it and calls it sin. If that makes you angry, your problem is with God and His Word.

Out of interest, how would you feel about a homosexual couple who are married (let's say it's a civil marriage) and who do not engage in homosexual acts?

Being Homosexual begins in the heart. All sin begins in the heart. Yes, it is a sin. Frankly, your example is (as seems to be the norm with you) a bit absurd and unrealistic. Even if there are people living in that exact scenario, it is still just as sinful to be "gay" by orientation as it is to engage in homosexual relations.