Who is Jesus?

[LuftWaffle]

Hi there 808state,

I've been reading through the past couple of posts on this thread, and I guess I can understand why some may have doubts about your intentions. I myself am a little troubled because what you're requiring of Christianity is impossible. You want proof of the existence of God and you want proof of the claims of scripture, but it's a logical impossibility.

I've noticed that you've mentioned your reliance upon logic in some posts, and I find it odd that while claiming to rely on logic, you've taken such an illogical position.

What do I mean?

The only things that can be proven are logical truths and mathematical truths. Since God or the resurrection are neither, neither can be proven deductively. At best you'll receive reasonable evidence and logical arguments for the existence of God and the resurrection, but when you adobt a hypersceptical position, such as you have, then none of these evidences will stand. These evidences are reasonable and as such are only valid if considered reasonably.

Let me show you what I mean. Can you prove that Benjamin Franklin ever existed? If I put on a hypersceptical hat, I can smash each argument you can think to provide into the ground. Benjamin Franklin never existed, the historical evidence is all made up. A giant conspiracy. Those who may have known him were liars.

What about apples? Can you prove to me that apples exist? You won't be able to. You can show me a picture of an apple and I'll say, "That's a photoshop job". You can feed me an apple and I'll say, "it's styrofoam and plastic, made to look and taste like, whatever an apple is supposed to look and taste like". You can take me to an apple tree, and I'll say it's an apple shaped pear tree. You can get a scientist to analyse an apple using a mass-spectrometer, and I'll claim he's just in on the act.

The philosopher Rene Descartes coined the phrase, "I think therefore I am". This was during the era of rationalism, and what he did was to start by doubting everything. He became hypersceptical and by following through on this idea the only thing that he could prove was the fact that he was doubting. And by doubting he knew that he was thinking, because doubting is a type of thinking, and by thinking he knew that he existed. I think, therefore I am.

So he knew that he existed. That's it.

So if you're going to play the hypersceptic, you can deny everything, and you'll be left with only yourself. Your family...do they exist? Surely you can't prove that, maybe you were born in a testtube and strangers were assigned to be your family, like in the Truman show. But do these strangers even exist? Maybe reality is just a computer program? A matrix. Do your hands and feet exist? Perhaps they're just the renderings of an advanced bit of software, or perhaps even a dream created by your own mind, yes? Have you seen the movie inception? How do you prove that reality isn't just a dream within a dream within a dream?

Do you see where I'm going with this? You don't live your life in a hypersceptic fashion, yet you've adobted this position seemingly uniquely in regard to Christianity. It's no great feat what you're doing, because anyone can, and Descartes beat you to it. It's possible to be hypersceptical about most things in life. So the big question is why? Why claim that you rely on logic when you should know that logically virtually nothing can be illuminated bright enough for the ever blind, ever averted eyes of hyperscepticism to behold?

I'm my mind there are only two reasons why you could be doing this:

1. You really really don't want God to be real, so you've loaded the dice. Your requirement for belief is one that cannot be met. You require deductive proof of something which cannot be proven by deduction.

OR

2. You weren't aware of this fact, which is odd since you claim to rely on logic, which is precisely the thing you're defying by approaching the topic this way.

All we can offer you are reasonable arguments. We cannot offer proofs.

Yes, it's possible that the disciples were the finest liars ever. That none of the authorities bothered to parade Jesus' body down the streets to solve the problem of this new menace called Christianity. It's possible that they just never thought of producing the body, making them the stupidest people ever. It's possible that it's all an elaborate lie, and that the innumerable Christians were burnt at Ceasar's garden parties suffered and died in vain. It's possible that every Christian today who attests of having a relationship with God is merely deluded, that's it's all a placebo. It's possible that reality is just a dream. That your hands and feet are mere renderings. A dream within a dream within a dream.

But is it reasonable? Requiring the impossible is unreasonable by definition, isn't it?

You needn't answer this question on the open forum, but think about this: Are you being reasonable about this? If you believe you are, which I'm sure you do, then the following question would be, "Are you consistent?" Do you require deductive proof that your car's brakes will work before you drive? Do you require inductive proof that your eyes aren't lying to you when you cross the road? "But my brakes have never failed me", you say, will will they fail this time?

Edited February 12, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[Believer112]

Young Lady, I can see you have no desire to learn about Jesus. I've been curious why non believers come to a Christian forum to argue against what we believe? Most the non believers are not genuine when they say they desire to learn about God. You keep saying there is no evidence and really don't care to look on your own. Your hardened heart is keeping you from God. Weather you know it or not, the people here truly care about you and your eternal destiny. Here's info on the Gospels but you'll probably deny it's info because it's a Religious website.

http://www.probe.org...the_Gospels.htm

Young man , I've been clear about my intention here from the start. Forums like this are typically how I learn about other religions. I'm open to learning about Jesus, but I can't promise the results are going to be what you want them to be. I'm sorry about that. If I see a flaw in an argument or idea, I can't simply ignore it. If I believe in something, it has to be genuine. It has to be because I can't see any other real possibility.

What I've been saying is that there is no evidence of certain supernatural events outside of the Bible. I asked for some at the beginning of the thread, and the link that was given to me essentially stated that there was very limited writings about Jesus and events surrounding him outside of the Bible. I even looked further into it, and the result that I came to was that there was no evidence for the supernatural aspects of Jesus outside of the Bible.

I understand that I probably frustrate you, or at least it seems that way with your use of "young lady", but I'm still learning. I learn in my own way. My intentions are genuine, I come in peace. I'm not here to make anyone angry or frustrated.

As far as your link goes, thank you for that. I'll look it over with an open mind. It's not an aspect of the Bible I've actually fully looked into yet as far as consistency and dating goes.

I assumed you were a young lady by the other topic you posted somewhere else, I didn

[808state]

I think what I am trying to get across is that for each individual seeking in their own way and from their own position to find G-d or reach out to the posssibility of His existence, there comes a time when all the arguments stop, all the many questions that buzz around our minds seem unimportant, our reliance on being our own person and submitting to the limitations of our own intellect...no longer appeal....and we become those that truly seek, and are desperate for the truth and are aware of our own sinfulness and short-comings...More often than not, that is the time Jesus reveals Himself to a person....it does not have its roots in intelligence, but rather personal revelation through the Holy Spirit, disclosing G-d to you as an individual.

Right. I understand this. There are two sides to this for me: There's the intellectual side of looking at and analyzing the Bible, and then there is the emotional/spiritual side of Christianity. I've obviously made it clear in this thread the obstacles I have with Christianity as far as the intellectual side go, but I do also have some issues with the emotional/spiritual side of it as well. So, I'm my reasons for not currently being a Christian are not only rooted in "logical reasoning."

We don't have all the answers, sometimes we are arrogant and spiteful in the way we reply and just try to put others down when they don't respond the way we hoped they would....I'm sorry for this. But friend, Jesus does have the answers to our deepest thoughts, considerations and heartache...His words are trustworthy, they are the words of eternal life. I know it is a Scripture often used amongst Believers, but I believe that if you 'draw near to G-d, He will draw near to you'...in other words if you begin to see that you might be wrong and He might be right, and you dare to make yourself approachable to what He says in Scripture....I believe that can open up things in a way you have not seen before.

Matthew 11:25 2At that time Jesus said,

[808state]

Hi there 808state,

I've been reading through the past couple of posts on this thread, and I guess I can understand why some may have doubts about your intentions. I myself am a little troubled because what you're requiring of Christianity is impossible. You want proof of the existence of God and you want proof of the claims of scripture, but it's a logical impossibility.

I've noticed that you've mentioned your reliance upon logic in some posts, and I find it odd that while claiming to rely on logic, you've taken such an illogical position.

What do I mean?

The only things that can be proven are logical truths and mathematical truths. Since God or the resurrection are neither, neither can be proven deductively. At best you'll receive reasonable evidence and logical arguments for the existence of God and the resurrection, but when you adobt a hypersceptical position, such as you have, then none of these evidences will stand. These evidences are reasonable and as such are only valid if considered reasonably.

Let me show you what I mean. Can you prove that Benjamin Franklin ever existed? If I put on a hypersceptical hat, I can smash each argument you can think to provide into the ground. Benjamin Franklin never existed, the historical evidence is all made up. A giant conspiracy. Those who may have known him were liars.

What about apples? Can you prove to me that apples exist? You won't be able to. You can show me a picture of an apple and I'll say, "That's a photoshop job". You can feed me an apple and I'll say, "it's styrofoam and plastic, made to look and taste like, whatever an apple is supposed to look and taste like". You can take me to an apple tree, and I'll say it's an apple shaped pear tree. You can get a scientist to analyse an apple using a mass-spectrometer, and I'll claim he's just in on the act.

The philosopher Rene Descartes coined the phrase, "I think therefore I am". This was during the era of rationalism, and what he did was to start by doubting everything. He became hypersceptical and by following through on this idea the only thing that he could prove was the fact that he was doubting. And by doubting he knew that he was thinking, because doubting is a type of thinking, and by thinking he knew that he existed. I think, therefore I am.

So he knew that he existed. That's it.

So if you're going to play the hypersceptic, you can deny everything, and you'll be left with only yourself. Your family...do they exist? Surely you can't prove that, maybe you were born in a testtube and strangers were assigned to be your family, like in the Truman show. But do these strangers even exist? Maybe reality is just a computer program? A matrix. Do your hands and feet exist? Perhaps they're just the renderings of an advanced bit of software, or perhaps even a dream created by your own mind, yes? Have you seen the movie inception? How do you prove that reality isn't just a dream within a dream within a dream?

Do you see where I'm going with this? You don't live your life in a hypersceptic fashion, yet you've adobted this position seemingly uniquely in regard to Christianity. It's no great feat what you're doing, because anyone can, and Descartes beat you to it. It's possible to be hypersceptical about most things in life. So the big question is why? Why claim that you rely on logic when you should know that logically virtually nothing can be illuminated bright enough for the ever blind, ever averted eyes of hyperscepticism to behold?

I'm my mind there are only two reasons why you could be doing this:

1. You really really don't want God to be real, so you've loaded the dice. Your requirement for belief is one that cannot be met. You require deductive proof of something which cannot be proven by deduction.

OR

2. You weren't aware of this fact, which is odd since you claim to rely on logic, which is precisely the thing you're defying by approaching the topic this way.

All we can offer you are reasonable arguments. We cannot offer proofs.

Yes, it's possible that the disciples were the finest liars ever. That none of the authorities bothered to parade Jesus' body down the streets to solve the problem of this new menace called Christianity. It's possible that they just never thought of producing the body, making them the stupidest people ever. It's possible that it's all an elaborate lie, and that the innumerable Christians were burnt at Ceasar's garden parties suffered and died in vain. It's possible that every Christian today who attests of having a relationship with God is merely deluded, that's it's all a placebo. It's possible that reality is just a dream. That your hands and feet are mere renderings. A dream within a dream within a dream.

But is it reasonable? Requiring the impossible is unreasonable by definition, isn't it?

You needn't answer this question on the open forum, but think about this: Are you being reasonable about this? If you believe you are, which I'm sure you do, then the following question would be, "Are you consistent?" Do you require deductive proof that your car's brakes will work before you drive? Do you require inductive proof that your eyes aren't lying to you when you cross the road? "But my brakes have never failed me", you say, will will they fail this time?

Oh, you brought the heavy stuff. I agree with you that nothing can be 100% proved. I simply go in the direction that has the most evidence supporting it. That's the best I can do. At the moment, Christianity does not have the most evidence for me. It's pretty simple. And, as I pointed out in another post, it's not through lack of evidence alone that I have come to the current conclusions that I've come to. Obviously lack of evidence doesn't automatically credit something, but it doesn't discredit it either. Then you have things written in the Bible that, as I said before, can leave one raising an eyebrow. But, as people in this thread have pointed out, Christians sometimes have the same reaction to certain things in the Bible, and they conclude it's due to their own ignorance. To me, it seems a bit too convenient. You could apply the same approach to other religions. So, I guess what it comes down to is faith and what comes as a result of that faith, right? But then, I speak to people from other religions, many of them have approached me in a similar fashion that some of you have in this thread. They want me to experience their religion. They seem to believe that they know the Truth, and that it has benefited their lives greatly, and made them better people. So, who is deluded and who isn't? Maybe we all are?

[808state]

I personally feel it was the supernatural event of the resurrection and God

[LuftWaffle]

Oh, you brought the heavy stuff. I agree with you that nothing can be 100% proved. I simply go in the direction that has the most evidence supporting it.

Yes, but you're not even considering the evidence provided, and hence I believe that maybe you're unreasonably committed to atheism.

Take for instance how you've handled the evidence for the resurrection which shiloh357 provided.

Shiloh: "The disciples could have been easily debunked by the enemies of Jesus simply producing the body."

808state: "Again, we don't know much about Jesus outside of the Bible. It could be that Jesus did not get himself a nice new tomb like it says in the Bible, but was thrown in the town garbage dump, which was typically where the executed were "laid to rest" in Ancient Rome."

Your starting position is that the eyewitnesses are merely lying. That's not "considering evidence", instead that's attempting to create an evidentiary void. Is there any evidence that the eyewitnesses were lying? No. There isn't a single bit of historical evidence stating that Christ's burial location was controversial, or that they authors of the Bible were simply making up stories.

But again you're attempting to stack the odds in favour by rejecting out of hand most of the evidence "...because it's in the Bible". What you're doing is saying you want evidence for the resurrection, but the Bible doesn't count, knowing that most of what we know is written in the Bible and therefore you're arbitrarily sweeping evidence off the table before looking at it. As I said, that's not considering evidence, but creating an evidentiary void.

This is the equivalent of calling an accused to trial and ruling (artitrarily) that the defense's evidence isn't admissable. A judge making such a ruling would rightly be called 'unreasonable', not so?

So, by dismissing out of hand most of the evidence, and then claiming that you go where the evidence leads and that "there's not enough evidence" your objection becomes circular.

And the idea that Jesus was thrown on a garbage dump and that the Jews couldn't retrieve the body because it would make them unclean? That's no a reasonable answer either. The Jews had the Romans do their dirty work for them in killing Jesus in the first place. It is unreasonable to assert that somehow they wouldn't be able to find a Roman to also retrieve the body. Especially since Jesus and his followers were both a threat to the Romans as well as the Sanhedrin and the new threat of Christianity could have been stopped in its tracks right there and then, by simply producing that body. Are you saying their hands were tied because they found no-one to retrieve that body, from the rubbish dump. The rubbish dump that you've invented that is, since there's no evidence that Jesus was thrown on any rubbish dump.

The thing is as well, if the resurrection was made up by the disciples, why on earth would they fabricate a bodily resurrection? Something that could be so easily debunked. A spiritual resurrection would be unverifiable and therefore a much easier sell. Why did they have women discovering the empty tomb, considering that female testimony wasn't admissable as evidence in those days. A made up story would have had men discovering the tomb, but the inconvenient fact that is was claimed that women discovered it, is most likely so because it's the truth.

But then, I speak to people from other religions, many of them have approached me in a similar fashion that some of you have in this thread. They want me to experience their religion. They seem to believe that they know the Truth, and that it has benefited their lives greatly, and made them better people. So, who is deluded and who isn't? Maybe we all are?

We cannot speak for other religions, and the atheist tactic of constantly bring into religions into the discussion is non sequitur. You cannot argue against the geniune article from the existence of imitations.

But what other religions do show is that, throughout history, mankind has sought to transcend this world. If this world really is all there is, then this behavior makes very little sense. Would you crave chocolate if no such thing as chocolate existed? Likewise the very fact that people intrinsically yearn for transcendence is good evidence that there is more to life than the mere material world. Where does mankind get this notion that this world is all wrong and that there is something better out there?

Edited February 13, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[Guest]

Stand Fast

Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Proverbs 16:3

____________

The thing is, I've heard testimonies from different people of different religions, most of them seem pretty confident in their beliefs. And I have no doubt that religion can do wonderful things for people. But I have to ask the question, considering people of different religions have claimed to be changed by their beliefs, is it supernatural or is it psychological? My personal experiences have lead me to believe that it's psychological....

It's A Person

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:23

Not A Philosophy

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:8

And His Letters Testify To His Power

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

And Here On Worthy And In Your Family And In Your Community Those Who Know You And Who Know Him

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

And Who Trust Him And Who Love Him And Who Love You And Who Know

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

It's Now Your Time

Or Not Praying~!

____________

Believe

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:12-15

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

But I will sing of thy power; yea, I will sing aloud of thy mercy in the morning: for thou hast been my defence and refuge in the day of my trouble. Unto thee, O my strength, will I sing: for God is my defence, and the God of my mercy. Psalms 59:16-17

[808state]

Missed this one..

Loved one I am not talking about philosophy; I am talking about your heart! Talk to me about that which you are attached to that you would not want to live without, a dad, a mom, a brother, a sister, a friend, a dog, a worm, a rock.... notice that in this list that which was closest to you to that which is furthest away and has no life? Do these in this list arrive at their importance for what they do for you, or is it what they are? Have you experienced loss in that which you have considered close and needful in your life yet? Have you experienced something so wonderful that you did not wish to loose that experience and in loosing it did it cause you pain? Does being all alone scare you? When you enter a your place of stay do you turn on a radio, tv, anything that makes noise? Do you ever sit down all alone and examine yourself to see what is inside? I know these things are intimate and personal because they require entering the place of being, a place, that defines who you really are and what you are! I also know that you probably never go there because you are afraid of what you will find? This is the place, Loved one, that we, who have called out from there, have called out to Christ Jesus to save us for we have considered that what we have witnessed in life is to precious to loose! Even the purpose of a rock is to wonderful to loose... Where we are, if God has granted you this walk with me, is called the heart of life; it is of God's making and it is a wonder that only them that able to sit down in their heart, in quietness to examine, are able to see! I have just prayed that you are here in yourself unguarded with me and I have faith for Christ is also here as well! In this place we have come together is a place where all things speak loudly of God in the quiet of the room. They speak things like value, treasure, worth, and each and every voice speaks of Jesus Christ that has made them to be... they speak of color, texture, smells, beauty, intimacy of person the warmth of the sun and the cold of a mid winter night, the smile of a loved face, the tears of a hurting child... so far and yet so near in this spectrum of experience One Voice stands out when Spoken all things cease in their witness and only His is heard-

John 3:16-21

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

My family is important to me. It's not about they do for me, but what we do for each-other. I have experienced loss. Different forms of it. And I have loved something so much that I wanted it to remain constant.

I came to my current beliefs on spirituality/life through intense self-examination. It was a matter of throwing everything in my life away and seeing what it was I truly connected to in life. I was feeling lost at this time. I was feeling off center. I needed to find myself again. It was during this time I became fearful of all the uncertainties of life. I began to really examine what I believed and I realized a lot of my spiritual beliefs were based on assumptions. I had been raised to believe there was a God and an afterlife. The idea that one day I would simply stop existing, or worse, a loved would simply stop existing, it was unfathomable to me. It just seemed horrible and unfair. But it was through this self-examining that I began to realize that maybe that was the case, nothing in life was going to be constant. A big lesson that I was learning at this time was just because an idea was unpleasant or seemed difficult to understand, it doesn't automatically make it wrong. Things started to turn around when I rediscovered and fully acknowledged all the big and little things about life that I felt connected to. I also began to accept that perhaps there wasn't a higher-being looking over me or an afterlife. This wasn't easy to do. At all. But it was a matter of going with what I genuinely believed to be true over what I genuinely wanted to be true. And it made me see life differently. It made life seem fuller, and pushed me to fully appreciate the good things, even in the bad times.

I am with my family pouring out myself to The Father that He draw you to Himself for we love you and wish life with us forever with Him............Christ name above all name's.......

Thank you.

[808state]

Yes, but you're not even considering the evidence provided, and hence I believe that maybe you're unreasonably committed to atheism.

Take for instance how you've handled the evidence for the resurrection which shiloh357 provided.

Shiloh: "The disciples could have been easily debunked by the enemies of Jesus simply producing the body."

808state: "Again, we don't know much about Jesus outside of the Bible. It could be that Jesus did not get himself a nice new tomb like it says in the Bible, but was thrown in the town garbage dump, which was typically where the executed were "laid to rest" in Ancient Rome."

Your starting position is that the eyewitnesses are merely lying. That's not "considering evidence", instead that's attempting to create an evidentiary void. Is there any evidence that the eyewitnesses were lying? No. There isn't a single bit of historical evidence stating that Christ's burial location was controversial, or that they authors of the Bible were simply making up stories.

But again you're attempting to stack the odds in favour by rejecting out of hand most of the evidence "...because it's in the Bible". What you're doing is saying you want evidence for the resurrection, but the Bible doesn't count, knowing that most of what we know is written in the Bible and therefore you're arbitrarily sweeping evidence off the table before looking at it. As I said, that's not considering evidence, but creating an evidentiary void.

This is the equivalent of calling an accused to trial and ruling (artitrarily) that the defense's evidence isn't admissable. A judge making such a ruling would rightly be called 'unreasonable', not so?

So, by dismissing out of hand most of the evidence, and then claiming that you go where the evidence leads and that "there's not enough evidence" your objection becomes circular.

The issue is the "evidence" being offered to me is based on something that can't be verified. It's simply based on an assumption. And what I'm pointing out is since it can't be verified, the possibilities of what really happened are a lot broader than simply what is stated in the Bible. That's what my entire point is. We're dealing with a book that is making supernatural claims. Historically speaking, supernatural claimants don't have a great track record. So, why should I trust this one over the others? That would be a good place to start if you want to provide evidence.

And the idea that Jesus was thrown on a garbage dump and that the Jews couldn't retrieve the body because it would make them unclean? That's no a reasonable answer either. The Jews had the Romans do their dirty work for them in killing Jesus in the first place. It is unreasonable to assert that somehow they wouldn't be able to find a Roman to also retrieve the body. Especially since Jesus and his followers were both a threat to the Romans as well as the Sanhedrin and the new threat of Christianity could have been stopped in its tracks right there and then, by simply producing that body. Are you saying their hands were tied because they found no-one to retrieve that body, from the rubbish dump. The rubbish dump that you've invented that is, since there's no evidence that Jesus was thrown on any rubbish dump.

Questions:

1. How many followers did Jesus have at the time of his crucifixion?

2. Did the authorities perceive Jesus and his followers to be a threat?

3. How widespread was the news of the resurrection initially?

Can any of the answers to these questions be verified outside of the Bible?

The thing is as well, if the resurrection was made up by the disciples, why on earth would they fabricate a bodily resurrection? Something that could be so easily debunked. A spiritual resurrection would be unverifiable and therefore a much easier sell. Why did they have women discovering the empty tomb, considering that female testimony wasn't admissable as evidence in those days. A made up story would have had men discovering the tomb, but the inconvenient fact that is was claimed that women discovered it, is most likely so because it's the truth.

Well, I'm imagine the disciples wanted to be consistent with the teachings of the Old Testament. Doesn't it clearly say that his dead "body" will rise, not spirit? Besides, a body rising from the dead makes for a much more compelling story.

I think, as far as your second question goes, you answered your own question. Firstly, would it have mattered if it was a man or woman considering they probably wouldn't have believed them either way? Using a woman also gives the disciples more of an excuse as to why many people wouldn't believe them to begin with.

We cannot speak for other religions, and the atheist tactic of constantly bring into religions into the discussion is non sequitur. You cannot argue against the geniune article from the existence of imitations.

But what other religions do show is that, throughout history, mankind has sought to transcend this world. If this world really is all there is, then this behavior makes very little sense. Would you crave chocolate if no such thing as chocolate existed? Likewise the very fact that people intrinsically yearn for transcendence is good evidence that there is more to life than the mere material world. Where does mankind get this notion that this world is all wrong and that there is something better out there?

This is not a tactic. Obviously, I would fall in the "nonbeliever" category. It's not obvious to me why Christianity is more reliable as Truth than other religions. You would have to demonstrate that.

I think it's apart of human nature to want the good things to stay and the unpleasant things to go away. What we are craving is a consistency to things that we have experienced before on earth. The feeling of wanting to connect to something bigger than ourselves/the Earth is apart of that. It's the way to do that. There's a big unknown there. And we naturally fill up the big unknowns with a consistent version of those good things we experience here on earth. We attach familiar characteristics to it. It's like in ancient religions when people used to worship the sun.

[enoob57]

I came to my current beliefs on spirituality/life through intense self-examination. It was a matter of throwing everything in my life away and seeing what it was I truly connected to in life. I was feeling lost at this time. I was feeling off center. I needed to find myself again. It was during this time I became fearful of all the uncertainties of life. I began to really examine what I believed and I realized a lot of my spiritual beliefs were based on assumptions. I had been raised to believe there was a God and an afterlife.

You have claimed intense examination, but, kiddo you have explained yourself to not trust The Word of God as a viable source! So as Luftwaffle has spoken already to you... you have dismissed most of the understanding that God has provided to find HIm-

Rom 10:16-17

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

NKJV

As it stands your fairness is thus: God Who has made you, has also Said you must come to me this way

Heb 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

NKJV

In linear thought ... Must seek diligently-> in God's Word-> to gain faith-> to believe that God is-> to reiceive the reward

Heb 4:1-3

4 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached

to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do

enter that rest, as He has said:"So I swore in My wrath,

'They shall not enter My rest,'"

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

NKJV

there is no other way but through His Word through Christ.... if this path is to narrow for your thinking know God

has already spoken of this to us...

Luke 13:23-28

And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

NKJV

and though we love you and do not wish for you to perish in your rejection of Christ Jesus

IT IS YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO DO SO! For as it stands you have more respect for your own power of mind which prevents you from the only examination of the proof of God "His Word"...

Love Steven