His son Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 764 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Quote: 3. Unfortunately, this is one doctrine where Scripture is not completely clear. Just like divine election the Bible contains both doctrines. It is a paradox. There are simply some issues for which human reason falters. God chooses those who are saved. But we have free will to choose or reject salvation. God keeps and will not lose those He chooses. Yet we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Salvation is a gift secured by faith and yet involves an act of human will. Ephesians 2:8,9 even makes our "faith" a gift that is divinely provided. The entire process of regeneration and santification is a marvelous miracle beyond our complete understanding. If one takes all The Bible, and all The Scriptures that deal with salvation, and all the related doctrines, you will of your own understanding come to the conclusion that one can be saved, and turn thier back on God, and walk away from His plan for salvation. The only way that the opposition to this Biblical fact can support their doctrine is to take only those Scriptures that seem to support that doctrine, and ignore all the rest of The Bible. This has been shown many times over. Many Scriptures have been posted that make definite statements about losing salvation, and they have say that those people weren't realy saved which directly opposes what is written. When this is pointed out they then have to use language as their next line of defense, totaly ignoring all The Scriptures that address the issue of God not respecting any language above another. This is really sad but there are many who fall for it, and are living in a false sense of security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 If one takes all The Bible, and all The Scriptures that deal with salvation, and all the related doctrines, you will of your own understanding come to the conclusion that one can be saved, and turn thier back on God, and walk away from His plan for salvation. Yes, but salvation is not about you holding on to God, it is about God holding on to you. Just because someone walks away from God does not mean that He reciprocates by walking away from them. When we are faithless, He remains faithful. No one is saved because they are living right. They are saved because of what Christ did on the cross. As far as whether or not someone was truly saved before they fell away, that would have to be taken on a case by case examination. I think we can find examples on both sides of the fence. There are those who live religiously but have never trusted Christ. There are those who genuinely trust the Lord, but allow their guard to drop, or become discouraged, and cease practicing biblical Christianity. Also the distinction needs to be made between those who cease practicing Christianty due to weakness or discouragement, and those who genuinely turn away from God as an act of apostacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His son Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 764 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Regardless of what is said, The Bible says that one can be saved, and by an act of their own freewill turn their back on God, and loose thier salvation. Paul tells us to work out our salvation daily, That is done by submitting our wills to The Will Of God, in the power of The Holy Spirit indwelling us. Unless we do this we will not finish the race according to God's Word. So anything added to this issue by man is of no value. Salvation is a proccess that goes according to our daily freewill choices, and every one of us are predestined to spend eternity in one of two places according to God's foreknowledge of what those choices are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 The Bible says that one can be saved, and by an act of their own freewill turn their back on God, and loose thier salvation. NO one as disagreed with that. All you have to prove, is that God reciprocates by walking away from you. The security of your salvation depends on God's response to your unfaithfulness. Paul tells us to work out our salvation daily, No, that is not what Paul said. Paul said Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The word for work out is one word in Greek and means "out work." Our works are an out working, a demonstration of the genuineness of our faith. Paul did not say that we are to work for salvation, but rather to demonstrate it to the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 No one is saved because they are living right. They are saved because of what Christ did on the cross. actually, this is not entirely correct. they are saved because they accepted what Christ did on the cross and chose to make Him their Lord and savior. those who are not saved, are not saved because they choose not to accept what Christ did on the cross and make Him their Lord and savior. and that is a choice that is not stripped away from us after accepting. The only way that the opposition to this Biblical fact can support their doctrine is to take only those Scriptures that seem to support that doctrine, and ignore all the rest of The Bible. His Son, you're doing a good job. you are absolutely correct. keep up the good work, cuz i'm letting you carry on in my place regarding this subject. no pressure! :oww: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 and that is a choice that is not stripped away from us after accepting. that is true, but just because you walk away from God does not mean that God walks away from you. You have to demonstrate that God reciprocates your unfaithfulness by being unfaithful to you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 shiloh, you're still ignoring scriptures that indicate opposite of what you say... such as the one that says you will be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire... such as the one that says it is better for them that never believed than for them that believed and turned away... such as the one that says they will be turned over to their reprobate minds... such as many of the scriptures quoted within this thread. ok His Son, get back here and carry on! i'm about to go walk the picket line with my husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His son Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 764 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/01/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 The Bible says that one can be saved, and by an act of their own freewill turn their back on God, and loose thier salvation. NO one as disagreed with that. All you have to prove, is that God reciprocates by walking away from you. The security of your salvation depends on God's response to your unfaithfulness. Paul tells us to work out our salvation daily, No, that is not what Paul said. Paul said Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. The word for work out is one word in Greek and means "out work." Our works are an out working, a demonstration of the genuineness of our faith. Paul did not say that we are to work for salvation, but rather to demonstrate it to the world. Well I am not a Greek so I'll go with what The Holy Spirit wrote in my language which is English, and in English Paul in more than one way tells us that our salvation is a proccess in which we play a very big part with our freewill to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John3;16 Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 274 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/09/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/16/1955 Share Posted September 9, 2004 Galatians|3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? Galatians|3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Galatians|3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians|3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 shiloh, you're still ignoring scriptures that indicate opposite of what you say... such as the one that says you will be cut off from the vine and cast into the fire... such as the one that says it is better for them that never believed than for them that believed and turned away... such as the one that says they will be turned over to their reprobate minds... such as many of the scriptures quoted within this thread. ok His Son, get back here and carry on! i'm about to go walk the picket line with my husband. I am not ignoring those Scriptures, but I do challenge the hermeneutics being employed in applying those Scriptures. I have to go for now... I will elaborate more later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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