Orr v'emet Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Are you walking with God, or are you playing church????? has a person truely repented of their sins? and when they slip repents of the sin and moves on? So if you slip at 1:30 pm and repent at 3:00 pm your and die at 4:00pm your safe. But if you had died at 2:00pm your lost. Even if it was just a little bitty tiny sin, it still is enough to fall short of God's perfect standard for entrance into heaven. No Methinks a simple answer will not do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Do you want to respond to the John 10:28 verse? I think Mr. Irish answered this well on the previous page. BTW Tess, I did read your post in full. I used to quote all of those verses myself and argue them as well. Including the one above. Can you show me his response specifically to that verse? I can't find it. Also, if you believe my beliefs are in error (especially my posts on extensive study of specific verses) can you please show me specifically where my errors have been? If you can, please use scripture in context and show me where I misinterpreted original context and words. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orr v'emet Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Do you want to respond to the John 10:28 verse? I think Mr. Irish answered this well on the previous page. BTW Tess, I did read your post in full. I used to quote all of those verses myself and argue them as well. Including the one above. Can you show me his response specifically to that verse? I can't find it. Also, if you believe my beliefs are in error (especially my posts on extensive study of specific verses) can you please show me specifically where my errors have been? If you can, please use scripture in context and show me where I misinterpreted original context and words. Thanks. I don't think I accused you of that Tess. No one can snatch us out of God's hand but we can walk away. That's what he was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Do you want to respond to the John 10:28 verse? I think Mr. Irish answered this well on the previous page. BTW Tess, I did read your post in full. I used to quote all of those verses myself and argue them as well. Including the one above. Can you show me his response specifically to that verse? I can't find it. Also, if you believe my beliefs are in error (especially my posts on extensive study of specific verses) can you please show me specifically where my errors have been? If you can, please use scripture in context and show me where I misinterpreted original context and words. Thanks. I don't think I accused you of that Tess. No one can snatch us out of God's hand but we can walk away. That's what he was saying. Here's what I said about the verse: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." Here is the breakdown of the key words in Greek: Eternal = aionios, meaning: eternal, for ever, everlasting Life= zoe, meaning: life (figurative) Never= oudepote meaning, not even at any time, never at all Perish= apollumi meaning, destroy fully Pluck (Snatch)= harpazo meaning, to seize, catch If we re-phrase this using their original meaning it might look like this: "And I give them eternal life, forever. They (My sheep who I know intimately) shall never at any time be fully destroyed and neither shall anyone seize them out of My hand." Wouldn't "anyone" include yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobTriez Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,478 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/23/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1972 Share Posted September 9, 2004 If we re-phrase this using their original meaning it might look like this: "And I give them eternal life, forever. They (My sheep who I know intimately) shall never at any time be fully destroyed and neither shall anyone seize them out of My hand." Wouldn't "anyone" include yourself? No... Main Entry: 1 snatch Pronunciation: 'snach Function: verb Etymology: Middle English snacchen to give a sudden snap, seize; akin to Middle Dutch snacken to snap at intransitive senses : to attempt to seize something suddenly transitive senses : to take or grasp abruptly or hastily; also : to seize or grab suddenly without permission, ceremony, or right Compared to..... Main Entry: 1 leave Pronunciation: 'lEv Function: verb Inflected Form(s): left /'left/; leav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orr v'emet Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 26 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,672 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/12/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Do you want to respond to the John 10:28 verse? I think Mr. Irish answered this well on the previous page. BTW Tess, I did read your post in full. I used to quote all of those verses myself and argue them as well. Including the one above. Can you show me his response specifically to that verse? I can't find it. Also, if you believe my beliefs are in error (especially my posts on extensive study of specific verses) can you please show me specifically where my errors have been? If you can, please use scripture in context and show me where I misinterpreted original context and words. Thanks. I don't think I accused you of that Tess. No one can snatch us out of God's hand but we can walk away. That's what he was saying. Here's what I said about the verse: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." Here is the breakdown of the key words in Greek: Eternal = aionios, meaning: eternal, for ever, everlasting Life= zoe, meaning: life (figurative) Never= oudepote meaning, not even at any time, never at all Perish= apollumi meaning, destroy fully Pluck (Snatch)= harpazo meaning, to seize, catch If we re-phrase this using their original meaning it might look like this: "And I give them eternal life, forever. They (My sheep who I know intimately) shall never at any time be fully destroyed and neither shall anyone seize them out of My hand." Wouldn't "anyone" include yourself? No, I don't think so. I can't snatch or seize myself. It implies another party doing the seizing along with the one being seized. I can choose to walk away, it's called free will. As much as I would like to continue this discussion, I can't right now. I have some work to do but I will check back later. BTW Tess, I think I said before that I just recently came to believe one's salvation can be lost so I don't have all the answers. I am willing to admit that. What I do know is that there is no harm for me in denying the doctrine of OSAS because I know my relationship with God is secure. (And I'm not inmplying anything here so don't take it the wrong way!) Thanks for the challenge! :hug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabowd Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 112 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,489 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 Mr. Bob, how do you explain the "eternal" (forever, everlasting) life given to His own sheep, and the rest of the verse which promises that "never" (never at any point in time) will they be destroyed? Also, the verse does not say that we are able to "leave" His hand. We can't base theology on what the scriptures do not say. Don't you think if this were possible, Jesus would have clearly stated this? Considering this is the entire reason He came... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted September 9, 2004 Share Posted September 9, 2004 i am far from finished catching up on this thread, but so that i don't forget, i'm responding quickly to something shiloh said: have noticed that the anti-OSAS camp fails to make the distinction between falling into sin for a season, and apostacy. The failure to make that distinction further discredits their case, because it shows either and inability or a refusal to employ proper hermeneutics when putting forth Scriptures that they believe fortify their position. then you have obviously not read carefully what we have written. i and others have stated repeatedly that this is not a matter of backslidden into a sinful lifestyle, nor is it a matter of any of the daily sins we commit... it is a matter of rejecting the gift of salvation and consciously choosing to no longer want anything to do with God. scripture makes this disticntion, and so have many of us in this thread. i think i've even used the word apostacy, but if i haven't, i've certainly spelled it out. i know that called has also spelled it out clearly, as has bob, and i can't recall who else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgolvach Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 110 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,254 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 QUOTE Are you walking with God, or are you playing church????? has a person truely repented of their sins? and when they slip repents of the sin and moves on? So if you slip at 1:30 pm and repent at 3:00 pm your and die at 4:00pm your safe. But if you had died at 2:00pm your lost. Even if it was just a little bitty tiny sin, it still is enough to fall short of God's perfect standard for entrance into heaven. No The 1:30 sin is still unrepented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apothanein kerdos Posted September 9, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 331 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 8,713 Content Per Day: 1.21 Reputation: 21 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/28/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted September 9, 2004 I want to thank all of you for taking the time to respond to my post...oh wait...no one did. Could it possibly be because you can't? Either say you can't or respond...either way, it'd be nice to have some form of acknowledgement. Are you walking with God, or are you playing church????? This is a shifting theory now. You've averted the question I placed ebfore you. What is the difference between the old covenant and new covenant? Do not try and wiggle your way out. Give me a straight forward answer. As for John 10:28...did I see the English used to define a Greek word? Wow... Let's look at the scripture, shall we? kago didomi autos aionios zoe kai apollumi ou me apollumi kai harpazo tis harpazo autos ek mou cheir The importance here is apollumi ou me apollumi. This right here indictates that they shall never perish. Thus, we are left to believe that harpazo can indicate all men, including ourselves. In the Greek (remember, we're looking at Greek, not English, there is a difference) harpazo is lead by tis which would include ourselves. Please, if you're going to debate John 10:28 on the greek...don't supply English definitions. then you have obviously not read carefully what we have written. i and others have stated repeatedly that this is not a matter of backslidden into a sinful lifestyle, nor is it a matter of any of the daily sins we commit... it is a matter of rejecting the gift of salvation and consciously choosing to no longer want anything to do with God. scripture makes this disticntion, and so have many of us in this thread. i think i've even used the word apostacy, but if i haven't, i've certainly spelled it out. i know that called has also spelled it out clearly, as has bob, and i can't recall who else. What is sin? Sin is making the claim that we know better than God, whether it be through our thoughts or our actions. The act of sin is denying the power of God and the blood of Christ. Everytime we sin we are acting out of our flesh, not of the blood, thus denying the blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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