Guest Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Jesus started a Church, gave it leaders, and gave the leaders his authority. I don't see how anyone can miss these points in scripture. Authority Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost. Romans 15:13 And Hope I'm not sure what you think this means. Do you think that it means that Jesus didn't give the apostles unique authority? Unique Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:25-30 Authority Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6 Unique Hope For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 2 Corinthians 4:5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldust59 Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 989 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 6 Joined: 01/08/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/13/1959 Share Posted October 13, 2011 What Denomination do you belong to? Were you born into it or did you research and compair the differances then select the one which best suited you? My main fellowship is a New Testement, Non Denominational congergation which is Pastered by a guy who graduated Vala Victorian in his class i'm proud to say. I also attend a Sevent Day Adventist Church 'cause i call the sabbath a dellight. I'd join the SDA if not for the extra-biblical writtings of Ellen G. White. I like that they are so concerned about good health and wholeness of being. They're also the last of the Protestant denominations who remember who the Scarlet Woman is. I also like this Messianic Jewish congregation cause nobody can expound the old and the new like a former Rabbi whos seen the light. I note in John chapter 17 among the many theological gems there a prayer of the Messiah to the Father that there be unity in the body of believers A unity that he harped on in the text and compared to the unity in the Godhead itself. A unity the Church has not known for nearly 17 centuries. The reason we have so many denominations is not so much the proper fitting to an individual's own preferences or comfort, but because mere mortal men keep trying to reinvent the wheel... from all the other worldly manifestations depicting how mere mortal men have determined the Church of God should be. We have the blueprint in the Bible. But because people do not take the Bible to heart or do not believe it is the final court of arbitration which God set it up to be... then it's a matter of interpretation based on the opinions, experiences, and traditions concocted by mere mortal men (and women). My wife and I have been in and a part of many denominations over the past 5 decades. And all seem to echo the Roman Imperial take over in the 4th Century CE which the Church has never fully recovered from. Briefly, Constantine (who died a sun worshiper) saw in outlaw Christianity a cohesiveness his crumbling empire sorely lacked. He may not have envisioned the way the Roman Empire itself morphed into a religion (that which outlasts kings and kingdoms, emperors and empires a religion specifically the Roman Catholic Empire), but Constantine saw it possessed what his empire lacked and desperately needed; cohesiveness. He and his mother set out to build a religion with a fervor most religionists possess regardless the trueness of their path. Despite these interferences many Christian doctrines found their way to the light of day since they were and are so biblical. But regarding Church structure and those sort of doctrines... well, the emphasis on extrabiblical writings and traditions (to the point of precedent over scripture) is indication itself as to the error of those doctrines. For one thing, the Church was never meant to be set up as an us and them function (clergy / laity). For we are all priests before God (1 Peter 2:3-9 Revelation 1:6 / 5:10). We are not all pastors but we are all priests in our various ministries. And we are to congregate not cathedralize (which often passes off as the total fulfillment of our spiritual obligation and duty to Christ and just parking our pork in the pew is not the fulfillment of our ministries at all). I agree with others here that Messianic Judaism comes the closest to the first century Church, but even it has the cathedralization taint here and there from the traditions of men which Jesus himself said nullifies the Word of God. This is rubbish. You know very little about the history of the Church. Matthew 16 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Luke 10 16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." John 20 21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." 1 Timothy 3 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 2 Thes 2 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 1 John 1 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 4 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. John 17 20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. Not rubbish. Truth. Let's look at the record. John 17 (KJV) 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. No recitation of apostolic authority (which died with the eyewitnesses of Jesus death and resurrection btw) and has since been placed in the scriptures themselves 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (KJV) 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Psalm 138:2 (KJV) 2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. What you seem to be missing in John 17 is that Jesus clearly separated the role of the leaders of the Church from those who will follow their message. We don't all have the same role in the body of Christ. Jesus established a visible orgainzation with leadership, authority, and a commission. My rubbish comment referred to your fictional history of the Church. Hello again Chesterton, I think you're confusing the 'church' with the Roman Catholic Church. If you choose to confine yourself to its teachings, that is your choice and I pray that God guide you. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord and Him alone. When I look for the 'church', I'm looking for the body of Christ, and the strange thing is.... God is not limited by our conceptions of who He should use or who He will call to Himself. It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. (Phil 1:15-18) Instead of arguing about the 'church', perhaps it would be more beneficial to be preach Christ? Yes, I believe the Church is the Catholic Church because there is an unbroken line of leaders all the way back to the apostles. However, even if you don't agree that this Church is the Catholic Church you can still see that Jesus established a single, authoritative body and gave this body leaders with a commission. He told us to listen to their message. We can see in Acts 15 that the Christians in Antioch recognized this authority and did not attempt to create doctrine on their own. As to your last comment, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and many others preach Christ. Why don't you follow them? chesterton, would you please explain your last comment? (cause maybe I am taking it the wrong way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,191 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think Joe means that the Holy Spirit is the authority.. Who do we listen to when two people claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them in opposite directions? The one who leads us in truth to Truth... The Word alone to Christ alone with nothing in between... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldust59 Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 989 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 6 Joined: 01/08/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/13/1959 Share Posted October 13, 2011 As to your last comment, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and many others preach Christ. Why don't you follow them? chesterton, would you please explain your last comment? (cause maybe I am taking it the wrong way) My point is that preaching Christ is not necessarily the same as preaching Truth. One can claim to preach Christ but be teaching falsehoods. Thank you for clearing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stacey c Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 913 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/29/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/02/1969 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I think Joe means that the Holy Spirit is the authority.. Who do we listen to when two people claim that the Holy Spirit is leading them in opposite directions? The one who leads us in truth to Truth... The Word alone to Christ alone with nothing in between... Love, Steven What if two people disagree about what the Word says and claim a different intepretation from the Holy Spirit? Man will never have perfect interpretation of the Word, we are faliable and will mess up. But God is faithful to lead us back into the right direction. Our walk with God will always be a learning expierence, it's line upon line precept upon precept. God says it's a trying of our faith. Blessings stacey c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2011 My point is that preaching Christ is not necessarily the same as preaching Truth. One can claim to preach Christ but be teaching falsehoods. I totally agree. The Bible warns us not to put up with false Christs (2 Cor. 11:4), and there are even some people who believe such terrible falsehoods as waffers becoming Christ Himself and repeat the sacrafice on the cross, despite what scripture tells us about how that's impossible (Hebrews 7:27; 9:28; 10:10)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yes, I believe the Church is the Catholic Church because there is an unbroken line of leaders all the way back to the apostles. Unbroken? You know full well that at the Cadaver Synod Pope Stephen had the body of Pope Formosus dug up, the corpse was tried, and condemned as a heretic, and yet both these men appear on the offical list of Popes according to the RCC. You believe that the Pope has the authority to pronounce excommunications and according to the Roman Catholic Church condemnation of heresy puts the heretic outside of the Roman Catholic Church - so Formosus couldn't be both part of an unbroken line of Apostolic succession and an excommunicated heretic at once, so either Stephen didn't have the power to pronounce excommunication which a Pope has (demonstrating he wasn't a real successor) or Formosus was a heretic (demonstrating he wasn't a real successor). While you may try to worm your way out of that inescapable conclusion, whatever rationalization you use may seem reasonable to the person who decides to ignore the logical law of non-contradiction, but it's a tall order to ask the rest of us (who haven't blinded ourselves to reality by submitting our understanding to the delusional dogma of a man-made organization) to accept contradictions as though they were reasonable. However, even if you don't agree that this Church is the Catholic Church you can still see that Jesus established a single, authoritative body and gave this body leaders with a commission. He told us to listen to their message. We can see in Acts 15 that the Christians in Antioch recognized this authority and did not attempt to create doctrine on their own. But here's the thing, kiddo, no one's creating doctrine except the Roman Catholic Church. Everyone else is looking at scripture and saying, 'ok, it seems to say this', so our doctrines are simply the doctrines of the Bible which we're trying to best understand by following God's instructions on how to interpret scripture: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15), since it is "the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3:15). However, the RCC canonizes what people say in Ecumenical Councils as Holy Spirit breathed revelation, as well as sacred traditions and the writings of the supposed early church fathers, and now the ex cathedra utterings of the Pope. The Roman Catholic Church is the only party represented here that's offically and unapologetically guilty of the charge you're laying, and the denouncements of Jesus Himself when He said "in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matt. 15:9). What Peter actually said is "If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God" (1 Peter 4:11), which is the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16) not the traditions of man, and therefore it is the very words of God which is the message we received (the gospel) from God. It is to that which the person who follows God must appeal "so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it" (Titus 1:9). "You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1), not what is in accord with the traditions of man,"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered" (Mark 7:13). It's exclusively the Roman Catholic Church that's guilty of creating doctrine on their own, and the rest of us are simply appealing to what we all agree is God's own words. So we can see that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't have authoritative doctrine because it preachs against the doctrines of God, so even if you're right about the authority of a one true church, we can at least see that such a church is not the Roman Catholic Church, but is the ecclesia (meaning the called out ones) of God which looks in scripture nothing at all like the hierarchy of the RCC. As to your last comment, Mormons, Jim Jones, David Koresh, and many others preach Christ. Why don't you follow them? People here don't follow those other cults for the same reason as we don't follow the Roman Catholic Church - because they don't teach the Bible but instead appeal to the doctrines of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 What if two people disagree about what the Word says and claim a different interpretation from the Holy Spirit? What If? But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8 What If You Would Obey? These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11 Do You Think You Could Still Ask Such A Faithless Question? But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: John 15:26 Do You Think You Would Still Point Folk To A Church? And Away From Salvation By Faith In Jesus Alone? For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2 Corinthians 11:4 Dear One Turn Away From Those Who Would Seduce You Turn To Jesus And Believe Beloved And Be Blessed Love, Joe ~ Salvation For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 In Stereo Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16 ~ Truth Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7 Or Consequence Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5 ~ Jesus Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20 Or The Church Of The Brute And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Revelation 13:4-5 Which One Will You Choose? Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:25 ____________ _________ ______ ___ May God Bless The Reading Of His Word And The Posts And The Prayers Of His Trusting Little Children To His Glory And To The Shame And To The Repentance Of All Who Would Steal It In The Name Of Jesus My LORD And My God I Pray Glory To The KING Of KINGS Thank You Abba Father Amen Holy Spirit Amen~! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nChrist Posted October 13, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 438 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,947 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 300 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/28/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1949 Share Posted October 13, 2011 It's time for another reminder that the Catholic church IS NOT THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. The Catholic church is a false church teaching false doctrines and practicing non-Biblical traditions. Go to God's Word to see what the TRUTH is because the RCC isn't even close. In fact, the RCC is in direct violation of God's Word on almost countless issues. Study the links below and know that the information there can't be disputed. http://carm.org/roman-catholicism http://carm.org/are-roman-catholics-christian The links above are heavily documented by God's Word and can't be disputed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Jesus On The Book And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Matthew 4:3-4 The Word Given Through The Jew For All Men By God Almighty Himself All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 But Still Put Down By Liars And Such But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:13-15 And Worse Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:19(a-c) Don't Leave Home Without It Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 ____________ _________ ______ ___ Jesus promised the Church that the Holy Spirit would lead it into ALL truth, not some truth and some falsehoods. Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church. When the early Christians had a question about faith or morals, they asked the Church for the answer. That's what most Christians still do today. Jesus Said Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:17-19 To The Churches Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:20-22 Dear One, Won't You Hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts