OneLight Posted February 27, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2011 Just curious GW, do you realize that there are those here that came out of the RCC and have no need to ask, they know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlewind Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 91 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2011 Just curious GW, do you realize that there are those here that came out of the RCC and have no need to ask, they know? Hi OneLight, I believe I recall you are one of the ones who "came out"? I don't know of others; I don't frequent this site enough to know everyone. I just advocate that if you want to know about giraffes, you don't ask the elephants. I do believe what St. Francis said concerning, "Let me seek to understand rather than to be understood." That's where I'm at. I'm a relatively new Christian--16 years--and I've spent time seeking to understand why everyone believes so differently. It was quite disheartening when I first came to realize all the division. What do you know (as per your post)? I've heard reasons why some others have left the Catholic Church, but then, there are Protestants who have "come home" to the Church, also (as the Catholic Church likes to put it). (Don't worry; I haven't gone out and bought rosary beads, yet. LOL, just teasing you a bit . . .) Gw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2011 As a child, I was brought up Catholic. I did not attend parochial school, for my mother was banned from the church because her husband was deep in adultery and she received VD from him. They divorced. I did, however, attend the RCC and Catechism. When I felt God draw me to Him, I wanted to be an alter boy. I approached a Priest and asked. He was glad to hear my request and asked which class I was in. When I told him that I did not go to the Catholic school, he told me that I could not be part of the church services then. That broke my heart. Since then, which has been many years, I have gone through their teachings and find many more then I care to discuss here (in fear of Catholic basking) to be false. This is the reason why I have been silent in this thread. Only God knows who is His and who is not, not man. I also searched for an answer as to why there is such a division in Christianity. I have since come to believe it is due to pride and arrogance. Man needs to be right and when they loose their humility before God, they stop learning. I pray He will guide you in your endeavors. God Bless my friend! In His Love, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Catholics don't consider what they do worshipping Mary or the saints, but there is a very fine line between worship and what they are doing. They certainly give her praise. When I have talked to a Catholic about why they pray to Mary and the saints, they told me they are simply asking fellow saints to pray to God for them, and they say it is no differen't than asking anyone else to pray for them. I was listening to the Catholic Mass from St. Patrick's Cathedral quite a bit for awhile on the xm radio Catholic Channel, and they will ask everyone to pray for each other, and also ask that Mary and all the Saints would pray for them. The Bible does say God is the God of the living, not the dead, and we all believe the saints are in heaven. The question is, can they see what we are doing here on earth, and is it appropriate to ask them to pray for us? Whether it is appropriate or not, it is not necessary, as we can take our petitions straight to Jesus, who is our mediator. I was baptised in a Catholic Church as a young child, but was too young to remember the experience. I have nothing against the Catholic people, but it is clear that many of their doctrines are unBiblical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlewind Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 91 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2011 As a child, I was brought up Catholic. I did not attend parochial school, for my mother was banned from the church because her husband was deep in adultery and she received VD from him. They divorced. I did, however, attend the RCC and Catechism. When I felt God draw me to Him, I wanted to be an alter boy. I approached a Priest and asked. He was glad to hear my request and asked which class I was in. When I told him that I did not go to the Catholic school, he told me that I could not be part of the church services then. That broke my heart. Since then, which has been many years, I have gone through their teachings and find many more then I care to discuss here (in fear of Catholic basking) to be false. This is the reason why I have been silent in this thread. Only God knows who is His and who is not, not man. I also searched for an answer as to why there is such a division in Christianity. I have since come to believe it is due to pride and arrogance. Man needs to be right and when they loose their humility before God, they stop learning. I pray He will guide you in your endeavors. God Bless my friend! In His Love, Alan Dear Alan, It must have been very hurtful for your mother to be shut out of the Church because of her divorce. I believe I recall a verse in the Bible where Jesus condemns divorce, but with the exception of adultery. My only child--daughter--also was cheated on by her first husband and ended up hospitalized with Pelvic Inflammatory Disease from advanced chlamydia. I believe I recall that if you divorce you are no longer allowed participation in the celebration of the Eucharist, which, to a Catholic, I imagine, would be very hurtful. How sad that you wished to serve your Church and they disallowed you. (not exactly encouraging to a boy who had his heart in the right place.) I see burdens where there should not be burdens and I see what I interpret as striving for "control." However, I do know some who truly love their Catholic Faith. I fully agree God knows His sheep, regardless of what field they are in. I also believe we must always remain open to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I believe He gives us what we need as we need it. Ask, seek, and knock. God has done great things in my life and mine truly is a simple faith. I do have a deep affection for Mary. I never had a close relationship with my mother, and I do see Mary as blessed among women and a fine example for me and others like me. I have often contemplated her suffering and pain. I've thought of her life and what it must have been like--such unimaginable joy, and such unimaginable sorrow. Her humility in accepting God's will in her life is a fantastic lesson for us all. But, as Butero and others point out, there is a fine line between reverence and worship, and some, I believe, step over the line. Perhaps many Protestants don't ponder Mary enough, and many Catholics raise her much higher than what is right--probably higher than she herself would wish to be raised. Mary's role, as many Catholics tell me, is to always point to her Son. However, there is much Marion "doctrine" that I can see no basis for. I have tried praying to the saints--asking them to pray for me--but it just didn't feel right. I'm much too used to praying directly to the Father, as Jesus taught us, or sometimes to Jesus, Himself. I've also been around many on forums who question the Bible's authority or who say we have no need of the Bible. I'm one who believes the Bible is a tool used by the Holy Spirit. Without the guidance of the Spirit, the Bible is only words on paper, but with the guidance of the Spirit, we can learn many, many great lessons. I believe God can and does speak to us in many ways, but the Bible is a standard against which to test what we "hear". I believe God has protected the Bible over the years. I'm certainly not ready to toss my over-large collection of Bibles any time soon. Thank you for sharing. It's always a pleasure to "run into" you on our respective journeys. God bless you, and if you haven't done it already, watch the movie Faith Like Potatoes. Great film!! Blessings, Gw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlewind Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 91 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2011 Cobalt1959: Although you keep saying you are not a Catholic, you certainly sound like a Catholic apologist. If not a Catholic, why the conserted effort to defend a denomination that is strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia? Cobalt, No, I don't think I'd be at all qualified to call myself a Catholic apologist. I only know their basic beliefs, and I encourage people to ask qualified Catholics directly if questions arise. I do this because it is one way I can "love" the good and kind Catholics I have known. Nothing more, nothing less. Likewise, I don't believe I am qualified to condemn the Catholic Church or any of its thousands of individual members. They are in God's capable hands. In Christ, Gw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2011 As a child, I was brought up Catholic. I did not attend parochial school, for my mother was banned from the church because her husband was deep in adultery and she received VD from him. They divorced. I did, however, attend the RCC and Catechism. When I felt God draw me to Him, I wanted to be an alter boy. I approached a Priest and asked. He was glad to hear my request and asked which class I was in. When I told him that I did not go to the Catholic school, he told me that I could not be part of the church services then. That broke my heart. Since then, which has been many years, I have gone through their teachings and find many more then I care to discuss here (in fear of Catholic basking) to be false. This is the reason why I have been silent in this thread. Only God knows who is His and who is not, not man. I also searched for an answer as to why there is such a division in Christianity. I have since come to believe it is due to pride and arrogance. Man needs to be right and when they loose their humility before God, they stop learning. I pray He will guide you in your endeavors. God Bless my friend! In His Love, Alan Dear Alan, It must have been very hurtful for your mother to be shut out of the Church because of her divorce. I believe I recall a verse in the Bible where Jesus condemns divorce, but with the exception of adultery. My only child--daughter--also was cheated on by her first husband and ended up hospitalized with Pelvic Inflammatory Disease from advanced chlamydia. I believe I recall that if you divorce you are no longer allowed participation in the celebration of the Eucharist, which, to a Catholic, I imagine, would be very hurtful. How sad that you wished to serve your Church and they disallowed you. (not exactly encouraging to a boy who had his heart in the right place.) I see burdens where there should not be burdens and I see what I interpret as striving for "control." However, I do know some who truly love their Catholic Faith. Actually, the priest came to our house after she married my father and my sister and I were born, going to church, and told her that if she paid a large amount of money that he would perform a special mass for her and her sins would be forgiven. What he was saying is that we can purchase our forgiveness, that God would not forgive her otherwise. This is just one small piece of information from what my experience with the RCC was like. I don't hate those who go there, but I see them as following false teaching. I fully agree God knows His sheep, regardless of what field they are in. I also believe we must always remain open to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I believe He gives us what we need as we need it. Ask, seek, and knock. God has done great things in my life and mine truly is a simple faith. Just ensure that you don't get caught up into the Emergent Church ideals. As His time draws near, the lie becomes more polished and looks more like a gem. I do have a deep affection for Mary. I never had a close relationship with my mother, and I do see Mary as blessed among women and a fine example for me and others like me. I have often contemplated her suffering and pain. I've thought of her life and what it must have been like--such unimaginable joy, and such unimaginable sorrow. Her humility in accepting God's will in her life is a fantastic lesson for us all. But, as Butero and others point out, there is a fine line between reverence and worship, and some, I believe, step over the line. Perhaps many Protestants don't ponder Mary enough, and many Catholics raise her much higher than what is right--probably higher than she herself would wish to be raised. Mary's role, as many Catholics tell me, is to always point to her Son. However, there is much Marion "doctrine" that I can see no basis for. I also have wondered about her pain and her joy. Being a parent, that was easy while hard to do. I have tried praying to the saints--asking them to pray for me--but it just didn't feel right. I'm much too used to praying directly to the Father, as Jesus taught us, or sometimes to Jesus, Himself. For me, praying to anyone else is like saying God is not enough. Asking others to pray for you is one thing when they are someone who is still alive. Some may see me as an odd-man-out, but I don't believe that we are instantly with Christ when we die, otherwise, why would we need the rapture? It goes a lot deeper then that statement, but you can get the gist of it. I've also been around many on forums who question the Bible's authority or who say we have no need of the Bible. I'm one who believes the Bible is a tool used by the Holy Spirit. Without the guidance of the Spirit, the Bible is only words on paper, but with the guidance of the Spirit, we can learn many, many great lessons. I believe God can and does speak to us in many ways, but the Bible is a standard against which to test what we "hear". I believe God has protected the Bible over the years. I'm certainly not ready to toss my over-large collection of Bibles any time soon. I am in total agreement! Thank you for sharing. It's always a pleasure to "run into" you on our respective journeys. God bless you, and if you haven't done it already, watch the movie Faith Like Potatoes. Great film!! Blessings, Gw I have not yet seen that one movie. I have passed it many times while looking for movies. I will watch it. Yes it is always nice to run into you. May He be with you in your journey. Remember, Proverbs 3:5-6! God Bless, my friend! In His Love, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlewind Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 91 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/14/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2011 Cobalt1959: Although you keep saying you are not a Catholic, you certainly sound like a Catholic apologist. If not a Catholic, why the conserted effort to defend a denomination that is strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia? Cobalt, No, I don't think I'd be at all qualified to call myself a Catholic apologist. I only know their basic beliefs, and I encourage people to ask qualified Catholics directly if questions arise. I do this because it is one way I can "love" the good and kind Catholics I have known. Nothing more, nothing less. Likewise, I don't believe I am qualified to condemn the Catholic Church or any of its thousands of individual members. They are in God's capable hands. In Christ, Gw A good number of their "basic beliefs" are both unbiblical and wrong, so the question still stands: If not a Catholic, why the conserted effort to defend a denomination that is strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia? No one asks or expects you to "condemn" the Catholic church, but every single one of us are called to be watchmen and give warning about error within the church. So if you know that they hold beliefs which are wrong and unbiblical and you do not warn others of them, you become complicit in the error. You also become partially responsible. Cobalt, It is your opinion being stated that "a good number of their basic beliefs are both unbiblical and wrong." This is a blanket statement on your part, with no back up provided to verify your claim. And, that is the type of behavior I don't like seeing. Catholicism is vast and must be divided into many, many topics, each of which must be examined and debated individually, which was never my intention on this one, isolated thread. You ask again: If not a Catholic, why the conserted effort to defend a denomination that is strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia? My answer was: I do this because it is one way I can "love" the good and kind Catholics I have known. Was my first answer not good enough for you? My answer stands unchanged, except to point out that, in fact, I did not "defend" the Church in any of their beliefs; what I did is suggest that if anyone is sincerely interested in understanding why Catholics believe as they do, they should ask qualified Catholics. This is what I believe. And, it is verifiably true, due to the inaccurate information commonly distributed about the Catholic Church, some of which I have seen on this thread. I also listed their basic beliefs to inform those who might not know what they are. I did not state my opinion on a single one of the beliefs I listed. I never stated that I know anything about specific "error" within the Church. Forgive me for pointing it out, but it is YOU making the blanket statement about their basic beliefs being "unbiblical and wrong". YOU also made the blanket statement that the Church is "strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia". THAT is YOUR statement, not mine. Therefore, may I give you your own advice: . . . if you know that they hold beliefs which are wrong and unbiblical and you do not warn others of them, you become complicit in the error. You also become partially responsible If you would like to politely debate "them" concerning all their "error" you may visit any number of Catholic forums, or perhaps you could ask to see the Pope. I spent two years debating Catholics on their beliefs. Not once did a single Catholic give up their belief based on anything I offered. They, as I said, have reasons for what they believe. Neither you nor I are going to change anyone's beliefs. All we can do is present our opinions, offer relevant Scripture, and pray for them if we believe they are in error. In 1 Cor. Chapter 3, we are told that it is GOD who gives the increase. Now, if you wish to make me feel guilty, and accuse me of "partial" responsibility in the error of a Church that is almost 2000 years old, forgive me if I say your reasoning is ludicrous, and that by your very explanation you are more guilty than I. I only wish to promote peace and understanding between Catholics and Protestants, despite doctrinal differences. I would also like to ask, do you truly believe that none of your beliefs hold any error whatsoever? Is there anyone among us who has never been wrong in what we thought we knew? Are we not all learning day by day? I believe I've made my point on this thread, and I'm done here, on this thread. Thanks to all for kind consideration of what I've suggested. Peace be with you. In Christ, Gw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 28, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 I have not yet seen that one movie. I have passed it many times while looking for movies. I will watch it. Yes it is always nice to run into you. May He be with you in your journey. Remember, Proverbs 3:5-6! Alan, it is really worth a look. It was filmed about 2 hours from where I live, and Angus Buchan's church, Shalom, relates to ours in that often we share teachings. They come to us and we go to them. His is a powerful testimony, and I have listened to him teach on a few occasions now. He is now arguably South Africa's greatest Evangelist, and has filled every rugby stadium in advance for the entire year. Thats about 11 stadiums with seating for about 60,000 each. He is a straightforward, bible based, simple teacher who is anointed to spread the word. No fancy stuff, just truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted March 2, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Hey GW, I would like to quickly address a number of concerns you raised, and please feel free to ask me to elaborate on any of them. First is what I call the falsely imposed Protestant dilemma, which is if a Protestant asks a question about the RCC they're told to ask a Catholic. If that Catholic gives then a concerning answer they're told that an individual Catholic's opinon is of no consequence to doctrine, so you have to check with offical Catholic doctrine, and when you find something concerning there you have to ask a Catholic, and round and round it goes. The best way to get answers is to hit the official Catholic dogmas and hold them to what they state, since they do claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Second, you mention as long as someone is a believer of Jesus then they're your brother or sister and you're not sure where the contention to that lies. The Council of Trent is an Ecumenical Council and therefore offical Catholic Doctrine, and in its Canons in no uncertain terms all Protestants are damned to hell. These Canons were affirmed in the most recent Ecumenical Council. It also condemns to hell anyone who sympathises with Protestants. It does so under the claim of inspiration of the Holy Spirit. To challenge that assertion places one firmly outside the doctrines of the RCC. This brings up an important Biblical consideration, namely that if you don't agree then you're necessarily accusing the RCC of being a false prophet and we're not supposed to listen to them "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deut 18:22). The RCC for many, many years actively persecuted Protestants and martyred anyone who opposed Catholic Doctrines. So it very much does not consider us brothers and sisters, nor does it permit any of its followers to do so. As well, the Bible warns against false gospels (Galations 1) and false Jesus' (1 Corinthians 15), and warns not to trust anyone, even Apostles or angels who deliver another gospel than salvation by faith in grace alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) because there would be false Apostles (2 Cor. 11) who would try to lead people astray from the 'simplicity in Christ'. With such we're commanded against considering them brethern "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:9-11). Doctrine is critical and I submit that it's not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Edited March 2, 2011 by OldEnglishSheepdog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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