Gentlewind

In the heat of it all, I went to God, and I was about to pray and ask if, indeed, my worship of Christ should be any different than my worship of Him (the Father). But, I stopped and found I could not even voice the words. I love Jesus so much and thought to myself, "How can I NOT worship Him?" He is everything to me. It seemed a betrayal to doubt my worship of Him. And, yes, I do believe that Jesus is God, come to earth in flesh. I believe He was/is Immanuel, God with Us. I believe that Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory, and the express image of his person, as told in Hebrews 1:3. I am most repentant that I doubted for even a second.

Another kind thank you to all who participated on this thread. Despite the tension, you cited many great relevant Scriptures and ideas. I am feeling stronger, but may not be in full posting-mode for a couple weeks or so. Thank you so much!

Yes, Butero (and others), it is my dilemma whether I am strong enough to remain on a site with such diversity that what I consider to be basic Christian doctrine is being brought into question. Iron sharpens iron, and I've learned much in debate, but it can, at times, be draining, especially when life is simultaneously presenting other challenges. As OneLight so aptly expressed, some people with views differing from the Worthy Statement of Faith, are very good at presenting their beliefs, and Scripture soon becomes a way of hammering one another over the head, which I do not believe is a wholesome use of God's Word. I took quite a battering for my beliefs, and what was most perplexing is that I had to defend the wholesomeness of worshiping Christ on what is promoted as a Christian site. There are some people on the other site that believe as I do, and, as I said, I will not cast out and give up on those who see things differently. If, and when, I return to that site, I need to install new rules for myself. Certain people, I simply should not attempt to debate with. No, I do not run the other site, I am only a member there. As I stated in my OP, the site is based on deference to one another's varying beliefs--and there is an astounding variety of belief out there-- so unless a member becomes abusive, much is tolerated. However, it IS touted as a Christian site, and I, personally, believe there needs to be some limits. I know absolutely nothing of any other thread made recently on Worthy that was posted concerning idolatry. If anyone else wishes to make reference to my activity on the site "a couple years ago," I believe my posts are still archived? I am an individual and wish to be seen and understood as an individual, not as a part of some "group" that was ill-received over two years ago. The site I'm speaking of today is not even the same site that I was on a couple years ago, although some of the same people are members there. I agree that caution is advisable and wise, but there are much better methods of learning about a new or newly activated member than to jump on them in public with unfounded assumptions that actually contradict the OP, if time is taken to properly comprehend what was written. I came here in a weak moment, it is true, but I love Jesus no less than anyone here. I hope that if it is my decision to continue in fellowship on Worthy, that I will be given a clean slate and become "known" by what I present in this day and the days following. Forums have taught me to nurture a forgiving nature, so I will see how things go . . . The site looks great, btw. It's been changed somewhat since I visited in the past, and I love the new formatting. Are we allowed to post images here? I greatly enjoy posting praise and worship threads enhanced by photos and/or videos.

Thank you all for your very helpful replies. I think I shall take a break from forum-life for awhile and pray over what I should do. Truly, thank you.

Hello, I'm very weary at the moment. Please bear with me. While I visit Worthy occasionally, my "home forum" consists of people I've known and loved for several years online, gathered together from other various forums. Suddenly, this issue has come up that I would never even once have thought would be an issue, but there it is: There are those trying very hard to convince me that it is wrong to worship Christ. I am being told it is idolatry and adultery and that we are to worship ONLY the Father, as Christ did. Now, I was prompted to, of course, go to Scripture and "make like a Berean" and "study to see if these things are true". I see that Christ was worshiped at birth and I see many other instances where people knelt before him. The 1611 KJV does not say "knelt or kneeled" but "worshiped". The people worshiped Him, and He did not forbid them. And, of course, Thomas, with his exclamation of "My Lord and my God!" In Rev. 19, John fell at the feet of an angel to worship and was told, "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." They say that this was "an angel of the Lord, and that if one sees an "angel of the Lord" it the same as seeing Christ, Himself. Therefore, they reason that John was being "corrected" by Christ of his error in worshiping Christ. I believe in the Trinity, I believe Jesus was/is God. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." At my site, some do not believe in the Trinity, some do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and "deference" to one another's beliefs is preached. I understand we are all at different stages in our path of faith, and yes, we must be patient with one another . . . but, this . . . this is just too much. I have loved and worshiped Christ from the beginning of my faith, and now some are insisting that I've been commiting adultery by my worship of Christ. I believe the ones trying to sway me have some Jewish teaching, Kabballah, mysticism . . . I'm sure this reflects on their thinking. The latest is, I was told, "There is much He would tell you, but you could not bear it," still implying, insisting I am wrong in my belief. While some at my "home" site hold fast to Scripture, others are rather dismissive of it, believing the wide diversity in Scripture interpretation is what has caused such division within the Christian faith. I love these people, truly I do, but . . . Can you refer me to a thread that will strengthen my resolve that I am not in error to worship the One I love so dearly? Has this already been discussed? Please help me. Is there a list of Scriptures? This has caused a tremendous upset on my forum recently, with much division because of it. If it persists, I don't know if I can stay there. And, this saddens me deeply. Thank you, In Christ, Gw

OldEnglishSheepdog: Complete myth. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the official text of the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church in no way teaches that all Protestants are damned to hell. It does not condemn to hell anyone who sympathizes with Protestants. This is completely untrue. This was discussed, in detail, many times on the forums I attended in the past. You have only served to verify my point further; ask only a qualified Catholic about Catholicism. Or read their Catechism. Please read carefully, direct from the Catholic Catechism:

Cobalt, No, I don't think I'd be at all qualified to call myself a Catholic apologist. I only know their basic beliefs, and I encourage people to ask qualified Catholics directly if questions arise. I do this because it is one way I can "love" the good and kind Catholics I have known. Nothing more, nothing less. Likewise, I don't believe I am qualified to condemn the Catholic Church or any of its thousands of individual members. They are in God's capable hands. In Christ, Gw A good number of their "basic beliefs" are both unbiblical and wrong, so the question still stands: If not a Catholic, why the conserted effort to defend a denomination that is strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia? No one asks or expects you to "condemn" the Catholic church, but every single one of us are called to be watchmen and give warning about error within the church. So if you know that they hold beliefs which are wrong and unbiblical and you do not warn others of them, you become complicit in the error. You also become partially responsible. Cobalt, It is your opinion being stated that "a good number of their basic beliefs are both unbiblical and wrong." This is a blanket statement on your part, with no back up provided to verify your claim. And, that is the type of behavior I don't like seeing. Catholicism is vast and must be divided into many, many topics, each of which must be examined and debated individually, which was never my intention on this one, isolated thread. You ask again: My answer was: Was my first answer not good enough for you? My answer stands unchanged, except to point out that, in fact, I did not "defend" the Church in any of their beliefs; what I did is suggest that if anyone is sincerely interested in understanding why Catholics believe as they do, they should ask qualified Catholics. This is what I believe. And, it is verifiably true, due to the inaccurate information commonly distributed about the Catholic Church, some of which I have seen on this thread. I also listed their basic beliefs to inform those who might not know what they are. I did not state my opinion on a single one of the beliefs I listed. I never stated that I know anything about specific "error" within the Church. Forgive me for pointing it out, but it is YOU making the blanket statement about their basic beliefs being "unbiblical and wrong". YOU also made the blanket statement that the Church is "strongly, willingly and verifiably steeped in theological error and has been for over a millennia". THAT is YOUR statement, not mine. Therefore, may I give you your own advice: If you would like to politely debate "them" concerning all their "error" you may visit any number of Catholic forums, or perhaps you could ask to see the Pope. I spent two years debating Catholics on their beliefs. Not once did a single Catholic give up their belief based on anything I offered. They, as I said, have reasons for what they believe. Neither you nor I are going to change anyone's beliefs. All we can do is present our opinions, offer relevant Scripture, and pray for them if we believe they are in error. In 1 Cor. Chapter 3, we are told that it is GOD who gives the increase. Now, if you wish to make me feel guilty, and accuse me of "partial" responsibility in the error of a Church that is almost 2000 years old, forgive me if I say your reasoning is ludicrous, and that by your very explanation you are more guilty than I. I only wish to promote peace and understanding between Catholics and Protestants, despite doctrinal differences. I would also like to ask, do you truly believe that none of your beliefs hold any error whatsoever? Is there anyone among us who has never been wrong in what we thought we knew? Are we not all learning day by day? I believe I've made my point on this thread, and I'm done here, on this thread. Thanks to all for kind consideration of what I've suggested. Peace be with you. In Christ, Gw

Cobalt1959: Cobalt, No, I don't think I'd be at all qualified to call myself a Catholic apologist. I only know their basic beliefs, and I encourage people to ask qualified Catholics directly if questions arise. I do this because it is one way I can "love" the good and kind Catholics I have known. Nothing more, nothing less. Likewise, I don't believe I am qualified to condemn the Catholic Church or any of its thousands of individual members. They are in God's capable hands. In Christ, Gw

Dear Alan, It must have been very hurtful for your mother to be shut out of the Church because of her divorce. I believe I recall a verse in the Bible where Jesus condemns divorce, but with the exception of adultery. My only child--daughter--also was cheated on by her first husband and ended up hospitalized with Pelvic Inflammatory Disease from advanced chlamydia. I believe I recall that if you divorce you are no longer allowed participation in the celebration of the Eucharist, which, to a Catholic, I imagine, would be very hurtful. How sad that you wished to serve your Church and they disallowed you. (not exactly encouraging to a boy who had his heart in the right place.) I see burdens where there should not be burdens and I see what I interpret as striving for "control." However, I do know some who truly love their Catholic Faith. I fully agree God knows His sheep, regardless of what field they are in. I also believe we must always remain open to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. I believe He gives us what we need as we need it. Ask, seek, and knock. God has done great things in my life and mine truly is a simple faith. I do have a deep affection for Mary. I never had a close relationship with my mother, and I do see Mary as blessed among women and a fine example for me and others like me. I have often contemplated her suffering and pain. I've thought of her life and what it must have been like--such unimaginable joy, and such unimaginable sorrow. Her humility in accepting God's will in her life is a fantastic lesson for us all. But, as Butero and others point out, there is a fine line between reverence and worship, and some, I believe, step over the line. Perhaps many Protestants don't ponder Mary enough, and many Catholics raise her much higher than what is right--probably higher than she herself would wish to be raised. Mary's role, as many Catholics tell me, is to always point to her Son. However, there is much Marion "doctrine" that I can see no basis for. I have tried praying to the saints--asking them to pray for me--but it just didn't feel right. I'm much too used to praying directly to the Father, as Jesus taught us, or sometimes to Jesus, Himself. I've also been around many on forums who question the Bible's authority or who say we have no need of the Bible. I'm one who believes the Bible is a tool used by the Holy Spirit. Without the guidance of the Spirit, the Bible is only words on paper, but with the guidance of the Spirit, we can learn many, many great lessons. I believe God can and does speak to us in many ways, but the Bible is a standard against which to test what we "hear". I believe God has protected the Bible over the years. I'm certainly not ready to toss my over-large collection of Bibles any time soon. Thank you for sharing. It's always a pleasure to "run into" you on our respective journeys. God bless you, and if you haven't done it already, watch the movie Faith Like Potatoes. Great film!! Blessings, Gw

Hi OneLight, I believe I recall you are one of the ones who "came out"? I don't know of others; I don't frequent this site enough to know everyone. I just advocate that if you want to know about giraffes, you don't ask the elephants. I do believe what St. Francis said concerning, "Let me seek to understand rather than to be understood." That's where I'm at. I'm a relatively new Christian--16 years--and I've spent time seeking to understand why everyone believes so differently. It was quite disheartening when I first came to realize all the division. What do you know (as per your post)? I've heard reasons why some others have left the Catholic Church, but then, there are Protestants who have "come home" to the Church, also (as the Catholic Church likes to put it). (Don't worry; I haven't gone out and bought rosary beads, yet. LOL, just teasing you a bit . . .) Gw

Hi Fez. I was only trying to state what Catholics believe to be true, not present the beliefs as either true or false. Again, if you want to know why they believe as they do--ask them, one question at a time. (Each point is a topic in itself.) They have reasons for everything they believe. They even have scriptural references for much of it. Whether we agree with their reasoning or not is up to each one of us. I was surprised to "see" some of what they presented, but couldn't wrap my mind around all of it. I wasn't born into any church, and faith was not a part of my upbringing. Until I came to the forums, I had no idea of the division and confusion in this faith. I try to focus on simple, basic beliefs that "mainstream" Christianity accepts, for the most part. (However, I've seen people question even those . . . ) Personally, I've narrowed it down to this: If you love the Father If you love the Son If the Holy Spirit shines in you . . . then you are my brother and my sister. We can in no way get around the fact that Jesus called us to love--even our enemies. Seeking to understand is one way we can love, even if we find we don't agree. (Sorry if I sound "preachy". It's not directed at you, personally, but people of specific denomination, in general. I spent 2 years on a forum seeking unity between Protestants and Catholics. I came away believing that love is the only unity there will ever be. But, we should never underestimate the power of love. Amen?) 1 John 2:21-23 (New Living Translation) 21 So I am writing to you not because you don't know the truth but because you know the difference between truth and lies. 22 And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist. 23 Anyone who denies the Son doesn't have the Father, either. But anyone who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. Peace be with you. Gw

Dear Worthy Brothers and Sisters, If you are truly interested in understanding our Catholic brothers and sisters, I would seriously suggest directing your questions directly to them. I am a member of Defenders of the Catholic Faith, although I am not Catholic. *Edit links* If you ask your questions politely, they will answer politely. Please don't go to their forum just to show "great Protestant wisdom" or to denigrate their faith. You might be surprised. Also, here is and *edit links* website with easy to understand, concise info about Catholicism. *edit links*You can pick up a paperback copy of the Catechism for under ten dollars. Again, you will be surprised. There is MUCH you will agree with in its pages. And much of it is backed with scripture reference. Catholics worship only God. God is Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They 'venerate' Mary and the saints, which is not the same as worship. They believe that Mary and the saints are very much alive in heaven and can hear our requests to pray for us. They believe the more brothers and sisters, in heaven or on earth, that we have praying for us, the better. A primary focus is family. God is our Father in heaven. Mary is our Mother in heaven. We are the Children of God. Mary is greatly loved and admired as an example of a woman highly favored by God. They are the ones who canonized the Bible you read. Their "Bible" has seven books that ours does not--those books were removed after the Reformation. They believe in Apostolic Succession--that Peter was, in essence, the first pope, and they have a long, long, long list of each of the successive popes up to Pope Benedict XVI, who is the current pope. They believe in confessing their sin to the priest, but it is God who does the forgiving. The central focus of every worship service, which they call "Mass" is the Eucharist; the bread and the wine; they believe in what is called "the real presence", meaning that the bread and wine are changed into the real flesh and blood, soul and divinity, of Christ and are consumed at every Mass. They believe all forms of birth control are a sin, with the exception of Natural Family Planning, and are, of course, very set against abortion. They do not believe in the Bible as the only source of our faith (Sola Scriptura), but also base their faith on such things as the writings of the early Church Fathers and writings of the Saints, many of which were written by those taught by the original apostles who walked with Jesus. And they adhere to certain 'oral tradition.' They believe in Seven Holy "Sacraments" which are: baptism, eucharist, reconciliation, confirmation, marriage, holy orders, and anointing of the sick. The cross is always shown as a crucifix with the Lord upon it. They believe in "Purgatory" which is a place our spirit goes to be perfected before entering into the presence of God. They do not believe in "once saved, always saved" but believe we must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." They believe that true faith will produce works that are considered "meritorious", but do not teach that it is our works that save us. They DO NOT teach that you must be Catholic to be saved. Catholicism is a very structured faith and it is ancient, going back hundreds of years before the Reformation. All Protestant churches have sprung up only in the last 500 or so years. Protestants vary greatly in their interpretation of the Bible. Catholics do not have that problem, as they accept the interpretation as rendered by the Catholic Church. I'm not Catholic, as I can not agree with everything they believe, but I have come to respect their faith and love them as brothers and sisters in Christ. We have an enemy, and they are not it. There is much beauty and spiritual wisdom that can be gleaned from the Catholic Church, even if we can't agree on all doctrine. If you wish to learn about Catholicism, please ask a qualified Catholic. There are so many untruths and rumors about Catholicism, it takes a diligent effort to sort out what they REALLY believe. With Much Love of Christ, Gw

So very sorry about the loss of the little one. But within that little one was a pristine, beautiful spirit, created by the very same God who gave His Son to save us all. He holds her, still, in the palm of His hand. He loves her, cares for her, and I know He weeps along with you, not so much for this baby that is safe in His hands, but for the pain her passing has brought to those who love her and will always and forever love her. She was a gentle ray of God's light that shone only for a brief moment, but God's holy light penetrates every darkness. Even when all hope is gone, still, there is light in the darkness. Sometimes we blame God, but we forget that there is an enemy. And, he is a thief. Our world is fallen. But Lord Jesus is lifted up on high, and He is the God of Restoration. I believe, one fine day, all things will be restored. Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Someday . . . in the beginnings of eternity, that little baby will be placed back in her mama's arms. She is a treasure, stored up in heaven. This is my belief. Keep the faith and defeat the enemy who would have you curse God. It is a test to try the strongest of souls, an unbearable burden, if not for our blessed Lord Jesus who sees even the tiny sparrow that falls. May the power and awesome love of our great Savior cover your family like a warm, comforting blanket in this dark valley of your journey. Cling to Him, and embrace the promise of that great day of "no more sorrow, no more pain." My sincere condolences.

Oh wow. I wonder ... Something's up with all that. Canary in a coal mine; we live in the coal mine. Birds will be the first to drop if something's in the air. And migrating birds use the magnetic fields. Shifting magnetic poles? Not good. Not good at all. And so it begins . . . (?) Strange happenings . . . I wonder. I really wonder.

It is so hard to realize the agony He suffered, isn't it? We love you, Lord!