Reason with me on this...

[imoss]

I've now read the thread. Childeye, you remind me of a time earlier in my faith. It was the rebuke of a brother like Steven and then later the truth was ministered by the holy spirit through the word of God and through the rebuke of yet another that I grew in Gods word and came to the realization that the holy spirit is never in opposition to the word of God.

I had difficulty reading many of your posts. I would recommend that you do more paragraphs for ease of reading for those like me who are a tad ADD.

Another thing I noticed, the compliments that you start your paragraph off to me ring untrue and like you are trying to make the reader more plyable for what you are about to write by complimenting and multiple name use. When you post like this it seems a manipulation attempt... I could be wrong, I was once before but if I'm right just think about that. God calls us to love and sometimes rebuke is included in love but you need to know that the love of another isnt just in word but should come from the heart anything else is seen for what it is.

Its hard in a forum such as this to convey feeling. Sitting in a room with you an steven may produce a different perspective than in this forum room.

Bless your heart as you fellowship here and grow in Gods word. For we truly know God by his word!

[childeye]

I've now read the thread. Childeye, you remind me of a time earlier in my faith. It was the rebuke of a brother like Steven and then later the truth was ministered by the holy spirit through the word of God and through the rebuke of yet another that I grew in Gods word and came to the realization that the holy spirit is never in opposition to the word of God.

I had difficulty reading many of your posts. I would recommend that you do more paragraphs for ease of reading for those like me who are a tad ADD.

Another thing I noticed, the compliments that you start your paragraph off to me ring untrue and like you are trying to make the reader more plyable for what you are about to write by complimenting and multiple name use. When you post like this it seems a manipulation attempt... I could be wrong, I was once before but if I'm right just think about that. God calls us to love and sometimes rebuke is included in love but you need to know that the love of another isnt just in word but should come from the heart anything else is seen for what it is.

Its hard in a forum such as this to convey feeling. Sitting in a room with you an steven may produce a different perspective than in this forum room.

Bless your heart as you fellowship here and grow in Gods word. For we truly know God by his word!

Dear Imoss, your words are very sound and so also is your advice. I agree with everything you say. I too feel my comlpiments have been taken as insincere and therefore I appear condescending and I am suspected of guile. I too agree the Holy Spirit is never in conflict with the written word. Somehow I feel, the compliments I gave you in opening this response will be taken as for what they are.

Having said that, it is difficult to rebuke one who allows you no credibility. It is also difficult to explain both sides of the cross at the same time due to semantics and so misunderstandings occur. I try to elaborate so as to avoid confusion, however sometimes this only causes more questions. For instance some here have not understood what I mean by the laws of the Old Testament brought out sin and also accusation. I see the spirit of Satan as revealed in a hypocritical role of both tempter and accuser. This is scriptural. C.S. Lewis in his book,The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, also portrayed Satan as using the laws of God against mankind. He also believed the Old Testament was used to trap Satan as this is what the story was about.

Since I feel I can speak forthrightly with you, I must admit some of my compliments are in fact attempts to gain acceptance for things I wish to say that may sound offensive. But they are not outright but-kissing either. Here I am walking on eggshells, but not so with you. Why? I sincerely feel Satan trying to steal the message I am attempting to say. This is my life experience whenever preaching the gospel. I invite you to elaborate on why you feel My outlook reminds you of younger days, for I get the impression you feel I have something to learn. I love learning, and I love correction. I promise I won't bite or get offended, but if you have something to add to me, I will be most grateful. I thank you for the time you've already spent on me here. I recognize love when I see it.

[mizzdy]

Thanks for the response Mizz, I think. I do not want a thick skin, for God has been working hard in my life to get rid of my calloused heart with much patience and long suffering. Yes and it is now so soft and tender. Oh what empathy I am now capable of through Christ. And it is not my intention to crowd your space, so I won't come too close. Your view, my view, his view, her view, our view, their view; Alas, God's view. Why agree to disagree when there is only One Spirit of Truth? Christ came boldly claiming he knew it all, pushing his views, causing division, telling people what to believe, until finally people Killed him because he simply couldn't agree to disagree.

A thick skin is what is needed for most in forums and I nor anyone said anything about your heart, there is a difference. Agreeing to disagree is often needed in some discussion, yes it is true that YHWH, His Spirit nor Messiah will ever send a different message than one written it is us that have it wrong not Him. You may believe in your heart what you are saying is absolutely true and so does the person your talking to, does that make one of you right and the other wrong and how do you decided if both are quoting the same scriptures just applying different meanings?

Comparing your theology and others theology to Messiahs is a huge stretch, He is the truth, He is YHWH, He is the Creator of all, we are created beings that have so little understanding of Him yet we set here saying we are all led to the truth yet each truth is different than the others. More times than not we are revealed something to help us better understand Him and what He wants from us, seldom I believe, does He reveal something so we can go and tell others our truth trumps their truth. But I would like to go back to what you wrote before:

I think I could have worded things differently. Putting aside the issue of whether or not Satan and his angels were the adminstrators of the Old Testament, I would hope you would understand one thing about me. I love the laws of God, I simply believe there is a Spirit that comes from God, that is necessary to make a man able to walk in those laws, and even have no need of laws. To be above reproach. To become a child of God, not by our efforts, but by the gift of His spirit through belief in His Christ.

Without laws, guidelines there is no order, the angels we understand have instructions/laws, Adam and Eve are given instructions, Noah followed Gods instructions, Moses and David, we read Abraham obeyed Gods commands, statues and judgments and because they followed the Word of God, walking in faith and within His instructions they were and are accounted righteous. God calls His laws righteous and good, David delighted in them, so many throughout bible history saw that walking in His Torah produces blessings and outside of walking in His Torah we walk in darkness under the law, under its curses and condemnation. When God came down upon the mt. to talk to the Israelites He spoke and called out an assembly who when in obedience were blessed with His guidenace, fruitfullness and when they didn't they were under the curses, the followed idolatry, lawlessness. So yes the laws were created to show the barrior between righteousness and lawlessness/sinfulness. When we belong to Him we are to walk in the Spirit of the law, we are having His righteous ways written on our heart but the laws never disappear, we will always be in need of laws we just do not need to walk in them with a legal mindset. Yes we are His when we accept Him but we never stop learning, we never even stop sinning not in these bodies but our sins become, hopefully! easier to see, catch and stop with the aid of His Spirit. When we are walking within His instruction the fruit of the Spirit should come forth because its only when we walk in His ways can we even come close to producing fruit. To say that we will no longer need His laws is saying we no longer need His Spirit or Yeshua, its a package deal, when we accept Him we accept His rule over our hearts and lives. Which I suspect is what the newer covenant is all about, Judah and Israel and their companions are having Torah written on their hearts, not having the Spirit come in take over and left to lead you like a robot but guided within the boundries of Gods ways, to allow us to walk closely with Him as we mature in His word. There is nothing satanic, satan inspired or driven about the laws, commandments, instructions that God gave mankind to live by.

shalom,

Mizz

[childeye]

Yes I do have a question. Shouldn't we love others as we would love ourselves? Would you like to have someone take something you said and twist it to say something else? So that they claim you said something horrible, even blasphemous? Now on my part, if I had misunderstood what someone else had said, and in my misunderstanding I said they had said something horrible and blasphemous, would I want someone to call me a slanderer when in fact all I did was misunderstand? My answer is no I wouldn't. I would want them to come to me and clear up any misunderstanding. Notice how you say above you give Satan no place, but yet you do by insisting I said things I never said. Then you further the weight on my cross by saying it is a gnostic spirit contrary to scripture which I speak out of, and all this based on your made up spin on what was actually said. I have been patient so far because I do not want to call you a slanderer, even as I wouldn't want to be called one. And so in good faith I have reckoned you have misunderstood what I said. This has now come full circle so that after explaining to you that you have misunderstood me, and that I have attempted to correct you by telling you I love the laws of God. You now call that vacillating from what I said before. To be clear, and now and for the third time, I never said the laws of God were sourced in evil. So if now you wish to say I said those things I will be forced to count it as wanton slander and I don't want to have to do that. But whatever, we all have to love our enemies right? Praise be to God and His Son whose love is beyond our pettiness.

Ok here are some quotes of yours:

there are two Covenants one of works and one of faith. One that thinks they make themselves righteous through obedience to written commandments, and one that knows they are made righteous by God's Spirit living in them through Faith. One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness

Pasted from

two covenants Law and Grace... " One is satanic in origin" / "The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice"

Satan proposed there was a choice in the Garden of Eden when he said we could disobey God and yet live. He implied that through the knowledge of good and evil we could be righteous of our own accord being able to know the ways of good and evil. Man not knowing God is their light and goodness, that Love made a man righteous and not knowledge, were deceived, and have been ever since. That's why there are two righteousnesses, one of works and one by grace through faith.

Pasted from

God gave choice trees could eat from and tree not to eat from- This is the freewill given to His image that yo do not see.... We chose to eat from the tree we should not from and did eat the leaven of sin... Larry lies have no substance for God is in truth but not in lies! In the presence of God lies will disappear in the true light and liars will be standing before Him without excuse or reason for disobeying Him other than they chose to believe lie which is now gone and the truth their knee will bow and confess Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God The Father...

What I am saying is the Old Testament was under the administration of Angels at a time when Satan, Then known as Lucifer, was the covering Cherub, Ezekial 28. As you know, the dragon in Revelations 12:4 awaits the birth of the King of kings so as to devour him. On Earth this would be a spiritual power working though Herod and the High Priests, through both religious and secular powers on earth but spiritually answering to Jerusalem on earth. Satan is this dragon therefore over the principalities and powers mentioned in Colossians 2:15. For these powers under Satan, this dragon, crucified the Son of God who was without sin, and vanity was exposed as a pious fraud before all heaven and earth. The law that condemned the sinless one then became void. The Old Testament was not of faith but of works wherein is boasting, which is the same spirit of Satan who glories in his beauty given by God. The Old Testament therefore became a snare for Satan. When I use the term Satanic, it is this vain self-righteous spirit that crucified the Christ under the authority of the Old Testament, and was then cast out of heaven as is seen in revelations 12:10. For we who are set free from the bondage through the Old Testament by the blood of Christ no longer answer to the Jerusalem on Earth but now answer to the Jerusalem in heaven. So the scripture offers tangible proof that the Old Testament and the law of God gave power to sin,(Romans 6:14) and was used by Satan to condemn (Collossians 2:15, Revelations 12:10). My purpose in starting this thread is to point out that men are slaves of sin and the Old Testament verifies this through the inability of any man to keep it. The New Testament shows that righteousness is a gift of God by grace through faith, this changes all perspective on a reasoning that is greater than the one built upon the knowledge of good and evil through which our minds were made corrupt. The Truth That God is our light and to think we can be good or bad, through our volition is falsehood and vanity, taking God for granted. Had the Old Testament, which was based upon this assumption that men could obey it and attain righteousness, been able to save mankind, we would not need a New one.

Pasted from

this is garbage and so far from Biblical truth and knowledge of Scripture that it can only be considered gnostic in nature.... This is a twisted up mess and you wrote it... you say the problem is with my misunderstanding Ok benefit of doubt explain all this in detail for me please! Take away my misunderstanding. Love Steven

This added after the night of rest and the thought of needs for you...Larry! Because I know what you have written you have passion in it- it must come from your heart and because it is not aligned within the written Word you are trusting that coming from your heart as from God and yet God has warned us of this

Jer 17:9-10

9 "The heart is deceitful above all things,

And desperately wicked;

Who can know it?

10 I, the Lord, search the heart,

I test the mind,

Even to give every man according to his ways,

According to the fruit of his doings.

NKJV

This testing He does through His Word the ancient paths

Jer 18:15

5 "Because My people have forgotten Me,

They have burned incense to worthless idols.

And they have caused themselves to stumble in their ways,

From the ancient paths,

To walk in pathways and not on a highway,

NKJV

Isa 57:14-15

4 And one shall say,"Heap it up! Heap it up! Prepare the way,Take the stumbling block out of the way of My people."

15 For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:"I dwell in the high and holy place,With him who

has a contrite and humble spirit,To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

NKJV

Larry lay down trust in your heart and take up trust in His Word of written foundation unto Spiritual truths and come grow in the Ancient paths the learned of God through His Word... It is good to be small and fully laid out upon It's precepts to have no guile into which The Lord takes notice!

Eccl 12:12-14

12 And further, my son, be admonished by these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,

For this is man's all.

14 For God will bring every work into judgment,

Including every secret thing,

Whether good or evil.

NKJV

One Book will guide you through the many that is written "His Word"

2 Tim 2:14-16

14 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NKJV

Love Your Brother Steven

I've reread all of my quotes you've provided and consider as garbage, far from biblical knowledge and truth, a twisted mess of gnostic imagery. I've read where you think I am unaware of the choices of trees God gave to eat and not eat from which you cite as evidence of freewill. I've read where you feel I need to know that my heart is wicked and deceitful so as not to trust it, but to trust the Godly scripture through which you judge me and deny my hearts purity. You've assigned to me 2 Timothy 2:14-16 as my edification. You do not understand what I say, so you've stripped me naked in your pursuit to find something wrong with me in character, and that's okay, I don't care. I will dance naked before you and I am not ashamed, are you? If I speak, my sentiments are to you, counted as words of ruin. I shall not cast a stumbling block.

I note however you have been forced into conceding that you may be wrong by the Spirit of the Word, and have offered to give me the oppertunity to remove misunderstanding. For me to do so you must simply be honest.

Pertaining to freewill, you above claim I do not see the freewill that God gave us choices between trees to choose to eat from and not to eat from. In this view, the word freewill is defined as a choice based on the existence of options. I 've identified this type of freewill in my thread "the freewill gospels". One that says we have the ability to choose. One that says we have the right to choose, and one that says there are options.Therefore the record bears out that you are mistaken in the conviction that I don't see this definition of freewill. So be honest and admit you were mistaken concerning this.

Now, be honest and admit that Satan proposed there was a choice, "option" in the Garden of Eden when he said we could disobey God and live. If not, you are denying Satan ever tempted mankind. Likewise you must also admit God did not give us this option. If you do not admit this, then I challenge you to produce any scripture that says God gave us the choice to disobey Him and live. This is all I will address at this point since I said I will not cast a stumbling block. If you admit you were wrong about these, then we can proceed a little further, God willing. Love Larry.

Edited April 13, 2011 by childeye

[imoss]

@ Childeye... Thanks for your nice response though I was undeserving.

I would never ever call any part of Gods word satanic. When I said you reminded me of a time earlier in my faith I was referring to the fact that I'd received the Lord but spent no time in Gods word. I thought of that because you seemed to have a certain lack of regard for the word of God but then you confuse me because you quote the word of God with great ability & this causes me to wonder.

I am in no way qualified or good at scripture debate. I am articulate but have issues with recall and focus. I'll leave the debate to you guys but I did want to let you know how I was receiving what you were posting. Thank you for breaking up the posts, believe it or not it does make a difference to me & my ability to read your posts in their entirety.

God bless you as you fellowship & you & steven perhaps grow to be wonderful friends. One of my best online friends took me to task on many things & I actually intensely disliked him our first few threads. I suppose that was cause he was right. Perhaps the Lord will bless you guys in this way

Edited April 13, 2011 by imoss

[childeye]

Thanks for the response Mizz, I think. I do not want a thick skin, for God has been working hard in my life to get rid of my calloused heart with much patience and long suffering. Yes and it is now so soft and tender. Oh what empathy I am now capable of through Christ. And it is not my intention to crowd your space, so I won't come too close. Your view, my view, his view, her view, our view, their view; Alas, God's view. Why agree to disagree when there is only One Spirit of Truth? Christ came boldly claiming he knew it all, pushing his views, causing division, telling people what to believe, until finally people Killed him because he simply couldn't agree to disagree.

A thick skin is what is needed for most in forums and I nor anyone said anything about your heart, there is a difference. Agreeing to disagree is often needed in some discussion, yes it is true that YHWH, His Spirit nor Messiah will ever send a different message than one written it is us that have it wrong not Him. You may believe in your heart what you are saying is absolutely true and so does the person your talking to, does that make one of you right and the other wrong and how do you decided if both are quoting the same scriptures just applying different meanings?

Comparing your theology and others theology to Messiahs is a huge stretch, He is the truth, He is YHWH, He is the Creator of all, we are created beings that have so little understanding of Him yet we set here saying we are all led to the truth yet each truth is different than the others. More times than not we are revealed something to help us better understand Him and what He wants from us, seldom I believe, does He reveal something so we can go and tell others our truth trumps their truth. But I would like to go back to what you wrote before:

I think I could have worded things differently. Putting aside the issue of whether or not Satan and his angels were the adminstrators of the Old Testament, I would hope you would understand one thing about me. I love the laws of God, I simply believe there is a Spirit that comes from God, that is necessary to make a man able to walk in those laws, and even have no need of laws. To be above reproach. To become a child of God, not by our efforts, but by the gift of His spirit through belief in His Christ.

Without laws, guidelines there is no order, the angels we understand have instructions/laws, Adam and Eve are given instructions, Noah followed Gods instructions, Moses and David, we read Abraham obeyed Gods commands, statues and judgments and because they followed the Word of God, walking in faith and within His instructions they were and are accounted righteous. God calls His laws righteous and good, David delighted in them, so many throughout bible history saw that walking in His Torah produces blessings and outside of walking in His Torah we walk in darkness under the law, under its curses and condemnation. When God came down upon the mt. to talk to the Israelites He spoke and called out an assembly who when in obedience were blessed with His guidenace, fruitfullness and when they didn't they were under the curses, the followed idolatry, lawlessness. So yes the laws were created to show the barrior between righteousness and lawlessness/sinfulness. When we belong to Him we are to walk in the Spirit of the law, we are having His righteous ways written on our heart but the laws never disappear, we will always be in need of laws we just do not need to walk in them with a legal mindset. Yes we are His when we accept Him but we never stop learning, we never even stop sinning not in these bodies but our sins become, hopefully! easier to see, catch and stop with the aid of His Spirit. When we are walking within His instruction the fruit of the Spirit should come forth because its only when we walk in His ways can we even come close to producing fruit. To say that we will no longer need His laws is saying we no longer need His Spirit or Yeshua, its a package deal, when we accept Him we accept His rule over our hearts and lives. Which I suspect is what the newer covenant is all about, Judah and Israel and their companions are having Torah written on their hearts, not having the Spirit come in take over and left to lead you like a robot but guided within the boundries of Gods ways, to allow us to walk closely with Him as we mature in His word. There is nothing satanic, satan inspired or driven about the laws, commandments, instructions that God gave mankind to live by.

shalom,

Mizz

Dear Mizz, thank you for your correspondence. I understand what you mean by a thick skin. Do you understand why I responded with the callous heart answer? I wished to say that my love, or rather His Love, is what keeps me obligated to not hold what people say against me, against them. This Love does not hold people responsible to the degree that they know what they're doing, even as Jesus said while in the midst of crucifixion. This conviction is premised on the belief that we are all essentially the same, but that some have not come to the full realization of what spirits of darkness we entertain in apprehension of one another. For instance you feel you must defend the Law and Old Testament from me. Or should I say, you wish to enlighten me on the necessity of the law. Yes , that sounds better and less defensive in posture.

I will not argue the necessity of the law with you since my sentiments might be misconstrued through semantics. For I believe the law was necessary, but yet not necessary forever pertaining to instilling righteousness. I like your term guidelines, for there is a purpose they exist to serve. But what of this unrighteousness in man that would deliberately walk in opposition to the law? Where does it come from and how is it eliminated? Is it considered a "Freewill" that a man would rape and murder simply because he has that option? I must confess I have no such inclinations, or vile affections. I don't war with myself to not steal or covet, and this is not because I fear what God would do to me, though if I were inclined to do so it would certainly be a valid deterrant.

Therefore it should be taken by you, that this is what I mean when I say I believe in and testify to, a Spirit that makes one righteous on the inside, to have no need of a deterrant. So that even If I knew I could "get away" with a crime, it still would not become a reasonable course of action. And this is why I attack the notion of a "freewill" in the description of men having the option to sin, and I describe it as Satanic in nature. But I embrace the description of a "freewill" as preached by the Christ wherein he said "the truth will set you free", John 8: 32.

Edited April 13, 2011 by childeye

[childeye]

@ Childeye... Thanks for your nice response though I was undeserving.

I would never ever call any part of Gods word satanic. When I said you reminded me of a time earlier in my faith I was referring to the fact that I'd received the Lord but spent no time in Gods word. I thought of that because you seemed to have a certain lack of regard for the word of God but then you confuse me because you quote the word of God with great ability & this causes me to wonder.

I am in no way qualified or good at scripture debate. I am articulate but have issues with recall and focus. I'll leave the debate to you guys but I did want to let you know how I was receiving what you were posting. Thank you for breaking up the posts, believe it or not it does make a difference to me & my ability to read your posts in their entirety.

God bless you as you fellowship & you & steven perhaps grow to be wonderful friends. One of my best online friends took me to task on many things & I actually intensely disliked him our first few threads. I suppose that was cause he was right. Perhaps the Lord will bless you guys in this way

Dear Imoss, Only one thing here I wish you to understand. I never called any part of God's word Satanic in my life. The only way I could conceive of such a statement would be in the aspect that Satan himself is a created being, and all things were created through the Word.

Regarding Steven and me, it is inevitable that we will be more than friends, but brothers.

Edited April 13, 2011 by childeye

[imoss]

You wrote this: One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness

suppose I misunderstood

[childeye]

You wrote this: One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness

suppose I misunderstood

Yes I wrote this. It is not well said, so your misunderstanding is my fault not yours. Please keep in mind this was written in response to a response to my original post. In my original post I was pointing out that the idea of righteousness through works was an Old Testament one, where God gave us ordinances to keep, and in obedience, we were to keep them. Of course we failed at this, and now we rely upon God's mercy to be saved.

I wrote it this way, as you have thoughtfully included above, intending to set off in contrast the Spirit of the New Testament, but this was missed by many and they took it to mean that I believed God's laws were Satanic in origin, or that Satan instituted the Old Testament. I've paid the price ever since. I took for granted that those reading would have taken into account that in my original post I had already said God instituted the laws and are therefore Godly. It certainly didn't come to mind that anyone would presume I thought the laws of God were evil. The word "origin" is supposed to pertain to the Spirit of Satan as both tempter and accuser using the law to prosecute in an over zealous spirit of vain self-righteous piety.

Edited April 14, 2011 by childeye

[childeye]

name='mizzdy' timestamp='1302708500' post='1667095']

You may believe in your heart what you are saying is absolutely true and so does the person your talking to, does that make one of you right and the other wrong and how do you decided if both are quoting the same scriptures just applying different meanings?

This is an excellent question. There is a Truth and there are lies. I find most disagreements are over semantics. Simple misunderstandings. However, there are lies that do exist and can be exposed by those who know how. Jesus did this often and so did his apostles. Such is the power of the Truth. The Truth is not impotent. The basics are all that are necessary for agreement, since all truth is built precept upon precept. First of all, if it causes anyone to distrust God or defines God as a thing or less than a man, as not the Spirit of Love, it is not Truth. If it is in conflict with love others as you would want to be loved, it is built upon hypocrisy, and no Truth is built on hypocrisy. Honesty and humility is all that is needed to see Truth. The problems occur as we get farther away from what is simple, and into what we call "DEEP THEOLOGY". Here men become puffed up and carnal minded in divisiveness. All I'm saying that is true and no one will move me, is that "men are not free to disobey God and live". To believe otherwise is contrary to both the commandments of Christ.