Reason with me on this...

[childeye]

Repentance is a gift from God

Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."

NKJV

2 Tim 2:25-26

25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

NKJV

The Holy Spirit is the deliver of 'within our being'

Zech 12:10

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

NKJV

Is a necessary component in conviction of sin

1 Kings 8:38-40

38 whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple: 39 then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men), 40 that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers.

NKJV

Acts 2:37-39

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

NKJV

A gift is not worked for but a gift... Choice is also a gift of God given to us throughout Scripture seen in the very beginning...

Here is my belief in all this:

In the beginning choice- we chose wrong in Adam= when we arrive from childhood and one day know that we should not do

something and for whatever reason of reward we do that which we know we shouldn't we have agreed with Adam's choice

and have joined him in sin. This all men do because we have the sin nature!

Sin is like that of leaven when it is first entered it takes time for the whole lump to become leavened. As that time passes from

the first accountability more and more we are hardened to sin and it's wrongness (ungodliness)

Rom chapter 1

and the least

we see the need of Jesus Christ toward redeeming us from that sin! Choice become less and less and the more and more

we are bound in sin as the lies of satan enslave us!

Sovereignty and freewill are great truths taught in Scripture and Godly men wait upon God to understand How they complement

and uphold the unity in God and man for the eternities in Christ Jesus. For me they keep me as a small child unable to reason

their great truths in the smallness of my mind... I know I am also held to my choice

Rom chapter 1

as all men and

God has elected and predestined in His perfect choice.

When I was given sight of the need of Jesus Christ I also saw that all of what I was had no value not even my choice for it was

self centered and desired only the escape from the burning hell of those who reject His Son Jesus Christ! For me this is the

miracle of all miracles how that a selfish, self centered, being could cry out to be saved from all that He is and God should Hear!

I do understand- now- however for the needful death of that man and the life of the new one (now) is as different as darkness

and light! All of what I am centers upon Christ and the Holy Spirit within... They have become the all in all of life and I am being

lost in their Godly manner of Being unto The Father. I am in Love with my God and Savior Jesus Christ and am caring less for the

thought of self more every passing day! I believe I understand the clay pot that I am... for what has been put within is not my own

but with the bindings of Grace I may call it mine for all eternity... Love Steven

Okay have at me!!! come and get it just don't eat my shoes

[childeye]

In the beginning choice- we chose wrong in Adam= when we arrive from childhood and one day know that we should not do

something and for whatever reason of reward we do that which we know we shouldn't we have agreed with Adam's choice

and have joined him in sin. This all men do because we have the sin nature!

Steven, I also will leave you your precious shoes. I would not want to even approach the tenderness of your heart with the brush of a feather. But this I must say.

We certainly did choose wrong. Choice or freewill? I trust you know I will say as long as one has a sin nature, his desires are not free. Nor do I seek to be free or believe one can be free from God. When I was a child, I hated to play any games with my older brother because he would win and I hated losing terribly. I hated the darkness that came upon my heart. I did not want it or understand why it was there. For the knowledge of good and evil has produced a pride in men. For this reason they covered their nakedness. I believe sin is a condition and a product of acting out of pride or fear of shame, hence it is carnal in nature. We are tempted to serve our own selves over others. Adams disobedience however was caused by doubt. While I think he trusted God to begin with because that was all he knew, it is understandable that when he saw Eve had eaten of the tree and she did not immediately die, he then experienced doubt for the first time. Not just doubt in what God had said, but doubt in himself along with it. He of course was wrong to doubt God, though I think I would look dishonest to God to think I would have done better.

Sin is like that of leaven when it is first entered it takes time for the whole lump to become leavened. As that time passes from

the first accountability more and more we are hardened to sin and it's wrongness (ungodliness) Rom chapter 1

The leaven of sin I believe, is hypocrisy. This is the leaven of the Pharisees. For the pride of men sees the faults in others but keeps us blind to our own. One judges unfairly therefore and brings condemnation on ones self for doing the same things we despise in others. The mind of Christ is to not count it sin to count yourself equal to God but submit yourself as a servant to all. Therefore the mind of Satan is to wish you could be God telling everyone else what to do. These are two opposite images of God, one true and one false. This is where the Holy Spirit renews the mind. Romans 1 is speaking of a vanity in men that is a desire to make ones self more than God has appointed a man to be. A dissatisfaction with ones station and therefore a improper esteem of the Godhead. Note men thought they were wise and their hearts became darkened. Note they valued the creature over the Creator. They replaced the Holy God with a corruptible image of God. They had the mind of Satan not the mind of Christ. We are the image of God we hold to be true. With Satan's image of God blinding our minds, we become lifted up by seeing others put down. Hence I could not stand losing to my brother. But thank God for Christ who became the loser so I could be the winner, who became sin so I could become the righteoussness of God. With the mind of Christ I now love to lose and am lifted up by lifting up others. It's all win, win, win. Is my will now free or a slave? I don't care what you call it, it feels good and I am satisfied and even rejoice in tribulation.

Sovereignty and freewill are great truths taught in Scripture and Godly men wait upon God to understand How they complement

and uphold the unity in God and man for the eternities in Christ Jesus. For me they keep me as a small child unable to reason

their great truths in the smallness of my mind... I know I am also held to my choice Rom chapter 1 as all men and

God has elected and predestined in His perfect choice.

I would humbly ask where freewill is taught in Scripture. If you tell me God said to choose life or death, this does not mean we have a freewill. For we know the law only shows we are all sinners and come short of the glory of God. Had a man kept the law, then the ability to choose and keep it would be proof of freewill. But if a man says he chooses to keep it and cannot then his will is not free.

When I was given sight of the need of Jesus Christ I also saw that all of what I was had no value not even my choice for it was

self centered and desired only the escape from the burning hell of those who reject His Son Jesus Christ! For me this is the

miracle of all miracles how that a selfish, self centered, being could cry out to be saved from all that He is and God should Hear!

I do understand- now- however for the needful death of that man and the life of the new one (now) is as different as darkness

and light! All of what I am centers upon Christ and the Holy Spirit within... They have become the all in all of life and I am being

lost in their Godly manner of Being unto The Father. I am in Love with my God and Savior Jesus Christ and am caring less for the

thought of self more every passing day! I believe I understand the clay pot that I am... for what has been put within is not my own

but with the bindings of Grace I may call it mine for all eternity... Love Steven

Here Steven, I agree with every word you say and admire the way you say it. Please understand Steven, it really doesn't matter to me whether you accept what I say for I am nothing just like you, another clay pot. All is perfect in God's time. But the Word inside me demands my honesty as well as humility. They are intended to destroy lies and I am bound to God to speak forthrightly to all men. If something I say bothers you, I want to know. A wise man recieves instruction with joy, a fool despises correction. No matter who you are, it is good to be corrected.

Edited April 4, 2011 by childeye

[enoob57]

I am Like minded with Fez... I would like to see Scripture formed in you and not a distorted opinion! My friend none of us know you here

and you are hidden on your page of yourself? You are suspect to the sheep and there is uneasiness toward you. You need to establish

your love for God to us through Scripture not opinion. We are all fallible but when we put forth the Scripture toward what we are

understanding we are then revealed to be either agreed with or in need of correction in that same Scripture. Sometimes we do not agree

but if love is the applied purpose ugliness will not come from and family ties and that of Christ's ownership remains and we dwell as

family one with another... Come to us with Scripture and your belief in that Scripture and we will interact with you. When you stated in another

thread the Law of God was satanic in its existence and never denied my understanding of your statement... I was left with understanding

you are in deep trouble with God The Father... Love Steven

[childeye]

I am Like minded with Fez... I would like to see Scripture formed in you and not a distorted opinion! My friend none of us know you here

and you are hidden on your page of yourself? You are suspect to the sheep and there is uneasiness toward you. You need to establish

your love for God to us through Scripture not opinion. We are all fallible but when we put forth the Scripture toward what we are

understanding we are then revealed to be either agreed with or in need of correction in that same Scripture. Sometimes we do not agree

but if love is the applied purpose ugliness will not come from and family ties and that of Christ's ownership remains and we dwell as

family one with another... Come to us with Scripture and your belief in that Scripture and we will interact with you. When you stated in another

thread the Law of God was satanic in its existence and never denied my understanding of your statement... I was left with understanding

you are in deep trouble with God The Father... Love Steven

I appreciate your candor. It is necessary you be forthright so that I may address your concerns. May I be candid with you however? My Love for God is not an issue to prove to you even as I do not question yours. Such suspiscions are the foundation of the Kingdom of darkness and it is my duty unto God to say so. You err greatly to use scripture as your litmus test for acceptance into your confidence. The Christ was crucified by those who knew scripture. Satan quotes scripture. Need I give you scripture to prove that? Your love is not of Faith in God if he who is illiterate is cast out, because he does not read and cannot quote you scripture. Though most early Christians were illiterate, they were joined in a simple Truth. Love others as you would want to be loved, and in the end judgment and justice will come, for there is a God who is just and sees all. This is enough and all there needs be known.

I need no scripture to know it is Truth. Love God with all your heart mind and soul. I need not hear it or read it to know it is Truth. The Word of God in my heart already knows this. How do you suppose I believe in the Christ? Because his words are the same as the Word in my heart. John 5:38, John 8:47. I know Love in person therefore without having to read what love is. I did not ask you to prove yourselves to me, whoever you all are, knowing no one owns the Truth except God. I am not your judge and you not mine for all is pure to me, praise be to God, even as God has made it. And in this I glorify God and not myself. In good faith I accepted that you all are doing your best in this world of doubt and darkness, knowing that eternal Love will overcome, even as I would want that done to me. Has it not dawned on you how many divisions there are over scripture? Do you know how many people are turned away from Christ because the pure waters are muddied and the good pasture is trampled? Trampled by those whose interpretations are their requirement for agreement, without the humility to consider they are errant in their interpretation to begin with? Are you aware that countries who shared in the same cup and broke the same bread, and read the same scripture, then kill each other in senseless wars? Yet the Holy Spirit would not instruct us to kill one another, who teaches to bear one another's sins. Need I show you scripture for you to understand the truth of it. Are you aware scripture was deliberately written to divide those who hear in purity, and those who hear in impurity of heart? Hence people interpret accordingly. Christ is simple so as a little child can understand, but the understanding that comes from God resists the proud. Matthew 18:3, 2 Corinthians 11:3.

The word Satanic is not in scripture, though many referances are made to Satan who used the law of God to accuse men before God, Revelations 12:10, even to crucify His Son for blaspheme, Matthew 26:75. To say the Old Testament is Satanic because it contains both the Spirit of temptation, Romans 7:8, and accusation, Romans 7:11 is accurate, for he is the Father of sin and therefore hypocritical. What I said can therefore be misunderstood as so many things are.

For Jesus was said to say he would bring down the Temple, and this was used in an accusing manner, Matthew 26:61. This is quite the same as how I now stand accused of saying God's law is Satanic, when all I've said is the Old Testament is Satanic in that it contains both temptation and accusation. In other words, Satan was the covering Cherub, and if you do not know what a covering Cherub does, you will not understand how he was in charge of the administrating of the Old Testament. How do you think he who was without sin, (the Christ) was found to be a sinner, if there wasn't something wrong in the administrating of the law?

But if you pursue your impure evaluation of me, it will not matter how much scripture I show you, even as it mattered not to those who crucified the Christ. You will simply say I misinterpret or twist scripture so as to justify your ignorance in such matters. If you are sincere in the Love of God and pure of heart as I hope you are, you will not allow hatred towards me to conquer your heart and mind so as to persecute me for blaspheme and causing division. Though I suspect we would not allow ourselves to believe we harbor such thoughts if we are deceived by Satan. We would instead claim we rise above the other in a condescending pride that we call indifference, and simply ignore one another, convinced the other is the enemy and that God is on my side.

But I will not think that of you, for to Love my neighbor as I would Love myself prevents this. Hence I have the Spirit of Christ and will count it reward that you treat me this way, and bless you on your way, knowing you know not what you're doing. For Jesus said, that which you do unto the least of my brethren, you do unto me. I've just given you scripture as you required. You claim I have a distorted opinion. I will say that this is a distorted opinion of me. Am I better than you? No, I am not. For I do not believe men are capable of being better than others as I've consistantly claimed in all my posts. We all rely upon mercy and must bear each others tresspasses, even as the Christ did ours upon the cross. Such is the Love of God. I have said that Satan's power came through the laws of Moses under the Old Testament, and this is what was meant to be understood. For those with wicked and corrupt minds, for the record, I never said that the laws of God are bad, or to break the laws of God. On the contrary, I have railed against the proposition that men think they have the option of doing so, "Freewill" , calling it vanity, and therefore sin. In Collossians 2:15 we see that Christ paid the price for the accusation, and took out of the way the ordinances that were against us. And Satan who believes authority should be given to those whose piety is according to the law, is the Spiritual principalities and powers made a spectacle of. All I said was the same thing Paul said.

Edited April 5, 2011 by childeye

[mike2]

Childeye,

In a strange way I think I understand what you are saying.

By God introducing the Law, satan can now be identified based on a median. So much of the Old Testament is based on satanic influence and it outlines what life without Christ is like.

The New Testament shows us what life with Christ is like.

In regards to choice;

I believe the only choice we can truly call our own, is to choose to follow Christ, everything else we do is a reaction to spiritual forces, of one degree or another.

Pursueing an intimacy with God allows us to better react to His direction.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

All men, saved and unsaved, are subject to this wrestling. Blessed are those that realize this and look to Christ for help and sustenance, those that don't, just run around on their own trying to put out fires .

mike2

I would like to add that I think the correspondance in this thread amongst people with different understanding has probably been the most pleasant I have seen on this site.

God bless you and those you set the example for.

m

[enoob57]

I appreciate your candor. It is necessary you be forthright so that I may address your concerns. May I be candid with you however? My Love for God is not an issue to prove to you even as I do not question yours. Such suspiscions are the foundation of the Kingdom of darkness and it is my duty unto God to say so. You err greatly to use scripture as your litmus test for acceptance into your confidence. The Christ was crucified by those who knew scripture. Satan quotes scripture. Need I give you scripture to prove that? Your love is not of Faith in God if he who is illiterate is cast out, because he does not read and cannot quote you scripture. Though most early Christians were illiterate, they were joined in a simple Truth. Love others as you would want to be loved, and in the end judgment and justice will come, for there is a God who is just and sees all. This is enough and all there needs be known.

The Scriptures are my sight, my only sight, I rely on nothing else and I am commanded by God to evaluate all things by Their light.

Isa 8:20

20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

NKJV

I need no scripture to know it is Truth. Love God with all your heart mind and soul. I need not hear it or read it to know it is Truth. The Word of God in my heart already knows this. How do you suppose I believe in the Christ? Because his words are the same as the Word in my heart. John 5:38, John 8:47. I know Love in person therefore without having to read what love is. I did not ask you to prove yourselves to me, whoever you all are, knowing no one owns the Truth except God. I am not your judge and you not mine for all is pure to me, praise be to God, even as God has made it. And in this I glorify God and not myself. In good faith I accepted that you all are doing your best in this world of doubt and darkness, knowing that eternal Love will overcome, even as I would want that done to me. Has it not dawned on you how many divisions there are over scripture? Do you know how many people are turned away from Christ because the pure waters are muddied and the good pasture is trampled? Trampled by those whose interpretations are their requirement for agreement, without the humility to consider they are errant in their interpretation to begin with? Are you aware that countries who shared in the same cup and broke the same bread, and read the same scripture, then kill each other in senseless wars? Yet the Holy Spirit would not instruct us to kill one another, who teaches to bear one another's sins. Need I show you scripture for you to understand the truth of it. Are you aware scripture was deliberately written to divide those who hear in purity, and those who hear in impurity of heart? Hence people interpret accordingly. Christ is simple so as a little child can understand, but the understanding that comes from God resists the proud. Matthew 18:3, 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Now we are starting to get to the crux of the difference from understandings...

I do not trust my heart

Jer 17:9-10

9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?

10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways,

According to the fruit of his doings.

NKJV

We are told here by God that He alone can search our hearts-> 'OUR desperately wicked HEARTS'!

It is the Scriptures (written) that all may come and be renewed in their mind and produce Godly actions- the objective foundation of God is His Written Word... not the subjective aspect of wicked hearts!

The word Satanic is not in scripture, though many referances are made to Satan who used the law of God to accuse men before God, Revelations 12:10, even to crucify His Son for blaspheme, Matthew 26:75. To say the Old Testament is Satanic because it contains both the Spirit of temptation, Romans 7:8, and accusation, Romans 7:11 is accurate, for he is the Father of sin and therefore hypocritical. What I said can therefore be misunderstood as so many things are.

For Jesus was said to say he would bring down the Temple, and this was used in an accusing manner, Matthew 26:61. This is quite the same as how I now stand accused of saying God's law is Satanic, when all I've said is the Old Testament is Satanic in that it contains both temptation and accusation. In other words, Satan was the covering Cherub, and if you do not know what a covering Cherub does, you will not understand how he was in charge of the administrating of the Old Testament. How do you think he who was without sin, (the Christ) was found to be a sinner, if there wasn't something wrong in the administrating of the law?

You are need of repentance for this you have written is blasphemous error! You had better get out of your heart foundation and reconnect to the objective written Word of God foundation.

But if you pursue your impure evaluation of me, it will not matter how much scripture I show you, even as it mattered not to those who crucified the Christ. You will simply say I misinterpret or twist scripture so as to justify your ignorance in such matters. If you are sincere in the Love of God and pure of heart as I hope you are, you will not allow hatred towards me to conquer your heart and mind so as to persecute me for blaspheme and causing division. Though I suspect we would not allow ourselves to believe we harbor such thoughts if we are deceived by Satan. We would instead claim we rise above the other in a condescending pride that we call indifference, and simply ignore one another, convinced the other is the enemy and that God is on my side.

there is no other foundation but the written Word of God! Period... not your heart or your mind or your anything!!!!! God's Word only is the judge of all understanding

But I will not think that of you, for to Love my neighbor as I would Love myself prevents this. Hence I have the Spirit of Christ and will count it reward that you treat me this way, and bless you on your way, knowing you know not what you're doing. For Jesus said, that which you do unto the least of my brethren, you do unto me. I've just given you scripture as you required. You claim I have a distorted opinion. I will say that this is a distorted opinion of me. Am I better than you? No, I am not. For I do not believe men are capable of being better than others as I've consistantly claimed in all my posts. We all rely upon mercy and must bear each others tresspasses, even as the Christ did ours upon the cross. Such is the Love of God. I have said that Satan's power came through the laws of Moses under the Old Testament, and this is what was meant to be understood. For those with wicked and corrupt minds, for the record, I never said that the laws of God are bad, or to break the laws of God. On the contrary, I have railed against the proposition that men think they have the option of doing so, "Freewill" , calling it vanity, and therefore sin. In Collossians 2:15 we see that Christ paid the price for the accusation, and took out of the way the ordinances that were against us. And Satan who believes authority should be given to those whose piety is according to the law, is the Spiritual principalities and powers made a spectacle of. All I said was the same thing Paul said.

If you do not open to the truth of God's Word and cast all your foolish thought and emotions and heart supremacy away you will stand in danger of rejection of Jesus Christ The Living of the written Word.... Love Steven

[mizzdy]

Childeye,

In a strange way I think I understand what you are saying.

By God introducing the Law, satan can now be identified based on a median. So much of the Old Testament is based on satanic influence and it outlines what life without Christ is like.

The New Testament shows us what life with Christ is like.

Where the idea of the OT is satanic comes from it certainly didn't come from God. The entire OT is there to teach us how God wants us to act, act like someone He can call His child. We take the first books and show that man is not capable of ruling himself and how God set up guidelines, rules, commandments so we could walk in His grace. The NT are letters written to various people and congregations either chastising them for not behaving as they should as well as addressing many other issues. There is nothing new in the new testament that was not in the old or promised in the OT. Luicfer was there before man he is the one that God allowed to test man, which He knew would fail so God being the all loving, all encompassing Adonia who covers His people with His grace always layed it all out, God said if you do these things I will be your God and the books are showing how man sometimes walked in His ways and was blessed greatly or failed miserably and that caused God to scatter them to the nations. The whole bible tells of the fall of man and the redemption of man, if we did not have the OT the NT wouldn't make much sense, for instance James is written to the 12 tribes abroad, to the dispersed tribes, would people understand that God is restoring Israel by just reading the NT? Would anyone know when the signs and things to look for His return if not for the OT? After all God tells us specifically that He reveals the end in the beginning so how can the OT be satanically influenced if God set godly men to write His instruction and as we are told all scripture is given to us for our benefit and the apostles were talking not about the NT but the OT since the NT was not written or compiled.

Certainly satan has an influence on all generations if a person is not walking in God's light, no more so than today there is much more influence of satan today than when our ancestors were walking the earth. Your statement that the OT outlines what life was like without Messiah is kinda weird, they knew God, they had living breathing prophets who heard Gods voice, they knew there was a Messiah coming and anxiously awaited His arrival. If your statement is true then we are also living in OT times because we do not have a Messiah sitting on an earthly throne, we do not 'see' Him face to face, we are in the same position as the OT believers, waiting for our Messiah to come and bring us into His Kingdom.

shalom,

Mizz

[mizzdy]

But I will not think that of you, for to Love my neighbor as I would Love myself prevents this. Hence I have the Spirit of Christ and will count it reward that you treat me this way, and bless you on your way, knowing you know not what you're doing. For Jesus said, that which you do unto the least of my brethren, you do unto me. I've just given you scripture as you required. You claim I have a distorted opinion. I will say that this is a distorted opinion of me. Am I better than you? No, I am not. For I do not believe men are capable of being better than others as I've consistantly claimed in all my posts. We all rely upon mercy and must bear each others tresspasses, even as the Christ did ours upon the cross. Such is the Love of God. I have said that Satan's power came through the laws of Moses under the Old Testament, and this is what was meant to be understood. For those with wicked and corrupt minds, for the record, I never said that the laws of God are bad, or to break the laws of God. On the contrary, I have railed against the proposition that men think they have the option of doing so, "Freewill" , calling it vanity, and therefore sin. In Collossians 2:15 we see that Christ paid the price for the accusation, and took out of the way the ordinances that were against us. And Satan who believes authority should be given to those whose piety is according to the law, is the Spiritual principalities and powers made a spectacle of. All I said was the same thing Paul said.

Can you tell me how satans power came through the law? Luicfer was created before man and it was in him that iniquity was found, he separated himself from Gods light in order to please his flesh, the law tells us what sins are and because we are given the definitions of sin we can avoid, run, fight, and choose not to sin by allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us into the fruits of the Spirit. You give satan too much power and credit my friend he is just an instrument we have freewill to choose who our master will be, choose God and eternal life in the light of His Word or darkness and death. Man has not changed one bit we want it all fleshly desires and godly light its a choice on what path you want to be walking because there is only one. Where were Gods laws that Moses wrote when Cain killed his brother, or when man refused to believe God and Noah I would imagine they knew Gods laws after all Noah did bring in the clean and unclean animals, Abraham is accredited to keeping laws, statues of God so there have always been rules to follow. I think you have a skewed idea of the OT and of scriptures also, we are to read the word of God, we are to hear the word of God thats how it works, that whole thing about studying to show yourself approved doesn't mean sitting around allowing our hearts to rule our days without the written word, prayer, study etc.

shalom,

Mizz

[enoob57]

Beginnings: Hamartiology as evidenced is needed for a profitable foundation in God's Word:

When in the Garden the tree of knowledge of good and evil... satan had to have already fallen for evil is this:

lies... for God fills all things with His truth... and the lie of satan is that there is something other than God's filling

and truth! It can be understood in many ways but the best is because it originated within the created thing it has no eternal

substance which is only of God and what He creates. It is a lie defined without substance existing as evil under judgment

and eternal separation from God and His image...

2 Cor 5:21

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

NKJV

The truth that there is only God and all else has come into being by Him except sin for sin is not substanced in God but satan!

There is an infinite only in God and that which is not of God is swallowed up in God's all things are possible unto The Father and this is where true fear should

reside! For who can change what God has determined? He has written down all that He will do and given to us so that we may know Him and His intentions.... Why

you might ask?

Mark 13:21-23

21 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs

and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

NKJV

It is the last of days.... Love Steven

[childeye]

Childeye,

In a strange way I think I understand what you are saying.

By God introducing the Law, satan can now be identified based on a median. So much of the Old Testament is based on satanic influence and it outlines what life without Christ is like.

The New Testament shows us what life with Christ is like.

In regards to choice;

I believe the only choice we can truly call our own, is to choose to follow Christ, everything else we do is a reaction to spiritual forces, of one degree or another.

Pursueing an intimacy with God allows us to better react to His direction.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

All men, saved and unsaved, are subject to this wrestling. Blessed are those that realize this and look to Christ for help and sustenance, those that don't, just run around on their own trying to put out fires .

mike2

I would like to add that I think the correspondance in this thread amongst people with different understanding has probably been the most pleasant I have seen on this site.

God bless you and those you set the example for.

m

Dear mike 2, You are a Godsend I do believe. You have described precisely the same freewill Christ describes as in "the Truth will set you free" and "If the Son sets you free, you are free indeed". This choice is preempted by the Holy Spirit that draws men to God according to the purpose He proposed before the beginning of this age. Ephesians 1:4-5,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Mike 2, your words are sweet, as of the waters of the lips of our dear Lord, Jesus. May God bless you, and may His peace be upon you and your house.