Reason with me on this...

[enoob57]

When I reply to your posts... it is after I have read carefully what is written (for it is important to me to give an answer to exacting standards)

in your second post you said I misunderstood you (the quoting below)

I do believe we are misunderstanding one another. I am referring to Satan's being cast out of heaven and you are reffering to his fall.

so you notice you mentioned each item and put both at Christ's death... (below) as you can see by the enlarged bold print you have mentioned both terms...

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is to experience and know both. It is a tree that was planted by God for His purpose. Even Leviathon is a creature made by God. Satan's Fall was after the death of the Christ for his being made a spectacle of before all the angels in heaven was done on the cross.

Colossians 2: 14-15, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore the casting out of Satan had to be after the death of Christ, as is purported in Revelations 12: 13, And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. I hate to have to differ with you Steven, but evil is none other than the absence of Love. Lies or ignorance, or deception, are the absence of Truth. Darkness is the absence of Light. They are not the creation of Satan though he may think they are. God prepared a place for charity and grace to be seen.

This spirit you are believing to be of God and is in your heart more important than written text and that you have no need of teachers for God will teach you is the spirit of gnosticism! You are to test the spirits and see if they are of God and God clearly instructs His children that knowledge of Him comes through the written Word by the teaching of The Holy Spirit! This is not a debatable area for me for it is so self evident in Scripture and my own Spiritual experience... Love Steven

[childeye]

When I reply to your posts... it is after I have read carefully what is written (for it is important to me to give an answer to exacting standards)

in your second post you said I misunderstood you (the quoting below)

I do believe we are misunderstanding one another. I am referring to Satan's being cast out of heaven and you are reffering to his fall.

so you notice you mentioned each item and put both at Christ's death... (below) as you can see by the enlarged bold print you have mentioned both terms...

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is to experience and know both. It is a tree that was planted by God for His purpose. Even Leviathon is a creature made by God. Satan's Fall was after the death of the Christ for his being made a spectacle of before all the angels in heaven was done on the cross.

Colossians 2: 14-15, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore the casting out of Satan had to be after the death of Christ, as is purported in Revelations 12: 13, And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. I hate to have to differ with you Steven, but evil is none other than the absence of Love. Lies or ignorance, or deception, are the absence of Truth. Darkness is the absence of Light. They are not the creation of Satan though he may think they are. God prepared a place for charity and grace to be seen.

This spirit you are believing to be of God and is in your heart more important than written text and that you have no need of teachers for God will teach you is the spirit of gnosticism! You are to test the spirits and see if they are of God and god clearly instructs His children that knowledge of Him comes through the written Word by the teaching of The Holy Spirit! This is not a debatable area for me for it is so self evident in Scripture and my own Spiritual experience... Love Steven

I already stated there was misunderstanding and so you agree is what I take you to mean. You were the one concluding Satan's "fall" had to be before the Garden of Eden. I have never read any scripture that verifies the fall happened when you say. I must therefore presume you believe the fall of Satan from heaven and the casting out of Satan from heaven are two different events, which I do not. For scripture clearly shows his place in heaven was not found anymore after Christ defeated him on the cross in Revelations. In any event I painstakingly gave you scripture for the purpose of proving to you through scripture that the Satanic image of god ruled in the vineyard of God during the Old Testament, and those who are held captive to this false image are his children. I gave you much scripture showing that they, the scriptures, testify to the Holy Spirit instructing a man and renewing the mind with the true Image of God, the Spirit of Christ. For Satan knew no mercy nor grace, he knew not Love. I test the spirits. I see the difference between Satan's mind and the mind of Christ even as I know light from dark. Even as I know thorns from figs. Satan's is a piety that scrutinizes the smallest perceived imperfection without any mercy or understanding. And in the name of God such harshness makes people hate God. Such vanity is hypocrisy, for we now see as do all in heaven, that Satan's own self perfection even found fault with God.

I have been instructed concerning scripture by the Holy Spirit. When I was a child, the only book I had was a bible. I've read it since I was able to read. I was raised Roman Catholic and yet I never knew Christ. When I was older, I had a period in my life where I was forced to call upon God for He was my only hope, and in my darkness He answered. I came to know His Son and understand scripture only after He gave me the Holy Spirit. The scriptures were then open to me, and I came to understand the purpose of God and I learned how to praise Him through His revealing Himself through His Christ. I came to understand that the scriptures mean nothing without the Holy Spirits guidance. I love scripture, but I have never lost my first love. I see no gain in aquiring any knowledge that puffs me up into thinking I am any better than he who has never read a word of scripture. For this is the lesson of Christ who became sin so we could be the righteousness of God. This is the mind of Christ. I bear witness that the Love of God would die on a cross for the sins of man, while the Spirit of Satan would crucify God Himself in his quest for what he deems perfection. How is this gnosticism? Are you still testing me, or are you seeking imperfections?

Edited April 8, 2011 by childeye

[Believer112]

Childeye,

In a strange way I think I understand what you are saying.

By God introducing the Law, satan can now be identified based on a median. So much of the Old Testament is based on satanic influence and it outlines what life without Christ is like.

The New Testament shows us what life with Christ is like.

In regards to choice;

I believe the only choice we can truly call our own, is to choose to follow Christ, everything else we do is a reaction to spiritual forces, of one degree or another.

Pursueing an intimacy with God allows us to better react to His direction.

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

All men, saved and unsaved, are subject to this wrestling. Blessed are those that realize this and look to Christ for help and sustenance, those that don't, just run around on their own trying to put out fires .

mike2

I would like to add that I think the correspondance in this thread amongst people with different understanding has probably been the most pleasant I have seen on this site.

God bless you and those you set the example for.

m

[Guest]

Both The First Testament

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. Isaiah 53:3-4

And The Second Testament

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. John 1:11

Of The LORD

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, Psalms 40:7

Jesus The Christ

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7

Testifies

And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis 22:7-8

To

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

His

The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3

Love

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

And Joy

The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:17

Hallelujah~!

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

Amen!

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11

Amen~!

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hebrews 9:26

____________

_________

______

___

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! Psalms 133:1

[mike2]

When I reply to your posts... it is after I have read carefully what is written (for it is important to me to give an answer to exacting standards)

in your second post you said I misunderstood you (the quoting below)

I do believe we are misunderstanding one another. I am referring to Satan's being cast out of heaven and you are reffering to his fall.

so you notice you mentioned each item and put both at Christ's death... (below) as you can see by the enlarged bold print you have mentioned both terms...

The tree of knowledge of good and evil is to experience and know both. It is a tree that was planted by God for His purpose. Even Leviathon is a creature made by God. Satan's Fall was after the death of the Christ for his being made a spectacle of before all the angels in heaven was done on the cross.

Colossians 2: 14-15, Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Therefore the casting out of Satan had to be after the death of Christ, as is purported in Revelations 12: 13, And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. I hate to have to differ with you Steven, but evil is none other than the absence of Love. Lies or ignorance, or deception, are the absence of Truth. Darkness is the absence of Light. They are not the creation of Satan though he may think they are. God prepared a place for charity and grace to be seen.

This spirit you are believing to be of God and is in your heart more important than written text and that you have no need of teachers for God will teach you is the spirit of gnosticism! You are to test the spirits and see if they are of God and god clearly instructs His children that knowledge of Him comes through the written Word by the teaching of The Holy Spirit! This is not a debatable area for me for it is so self evident in Scripture and my own Spiritual experience... Love Steven

I already stated there was misunderstanding and so you agree is what I take you to mean. You were the one concluding Satan's "fall" had to be before the Garden of Eden. I have never read any scripture that verifies the fall happened when you say. I must therefore presume you believe the fall of Satan from heaven and the casting out of Satan from heaven are two different events, which I do not. For scripture clearly shows his place in heaven was not found anymore after Christ defeated him on the cross in Revelations. In any event I painstakingly gave you scripture for the purpose of proving to you through scripture that the Satanic image of god ruled in the vineyard of God during the Old Testament, and those who are held captive to this false image are his children. I gave you much scripture showing that they, the scriptures, testify to the Holy Spirit instructing a man and renewing the mind with the true Image of God, the Spirit of Christ. For Satan knew no mercy nor grace, he knew not Love. I test the spirits. I see the difference between Satan's mind and the mind of Christ even as I know light from dark. Even as I know thorns from figs. Satan's is a piety that scrutinizes the smallest perceived imperfection without any mercy or understanding. And in the name of God such harshness makes people hate God. Such vanity is hypocrisy, for we now see as do all in heaven, that Satan's own self perfection even found fault with God.

I have been instructed concerning scripture by the Holy Spirit. When I was a child, the only book I had was a bible. I've read it since I was able to read. I was raised Roman Catholic and yet I never knew Christ. When I was older, I had a period in my life where I was forced to call upon God for He was my only hope, and in my darkness He answered. I came to know His Son and understand scripture only after He gave me the Holy Spirit. The scriptures were then open to me, and I came to understand the purpose of God and I learned how to praise Him through His revealing Himself through His Christ. I came to understand that the scriptures mean nothing without the Holy Spirits guidance. I love scripture, but I have never lost my first love. I see no gain in aquiring any knowledge that puffs me up into thinking I am any better than he who has never read a word of scripture. For this is the lesson of Christ who became sin so we could be the righteousness of God. This is the mind of Christ. I bear witness that the Love of God would die on a cross for the sins of man, while the Spirit of Satan would crucify God Himself in his quest for what he deems perfection. How is this gnosticism? Are you still testing me, or are you seeking imperfections?

"Satan's is a piety that scrutinizes the smallest perceived imperfection without any mercy or understanding. And in the name of God such harshness makes people hate God. "

I understand how you may feel that Satan is trying to have an influence in this conversation and turn it into the same thing that I have seen in many other threads.

We do have to be careful. It is especially dangerous when reaching into areas that challenge a higher level of understanding.

I think it is important to extend grace when exploring doctrine in new ways. Both to the proposal and to the critics.

Regarding Satan, Rev 12 tells me he fell way before the cross. And the reaction to that explains the great joy of the heavenly beings at the time of Jesus' birth (v10).

Heb 2:14,15 talks of destroying the devil , like one team would "destroy" another, they are defeated and no longer effective, they are still there but no longer have any hope of victory.

mike2

[mizzdy]

Can you tell me how satans power came through the law?

Matthew 21:33-40, Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

How does this show satan getting powers through the law?

[childeye]

Can you tell me how satans power came through the law?

Matthew 21:33-40, Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

How does this show satan getting powers through the law?

Satan and his angels are in charge of the vineyard as the angels were the administrators of the law.

[mizzdy]

Mizz

In no way did I say that the OT was Satanic!!!

When the Law was introduced there was a standard by which sin could be identified by all men.

The OT is full of stories of Satans influence on man and how he leads us to sin I am NOT saying that somehow Satan influenced the writing rather the writing is reporting Satans influence. It has to be made clear to man that his influence is in the world and that even with rules we are incapable of completely resisting that influence, we are totally helpless and need another way to come into the presence of God.

So I say much of the writings are based on the influence Satan has on us.

Like you said "The entire OT is there to teach us how God wants us to act, act like someone He can call His child." Without Satan how will we know how not to act?

I see in Childeye someone that is intelligent and trying to communicate his understanding in his way of speaking based on some abstract thinking, try to find the nuggets and encourage where the doctine is wrong.

I hear some good advice from others that are well versed and knowledgable, don't get defensive but look for the nuggets.

I think a lot can be learned if it is presented gently and we acknowledge where we agree.

Thats why I am here from time to time.

Which reminds me- off to bible study.

Peace and blessings

mike2

Sorry if thats not what your saying, you and childeye seem to have the same type of theology. There have always been laws first set upon the world to work in order for man to live here, God gave Adam and Eve laws, tend the garden, don't eat of the tree. The time between Adam leaving the garden and the flood there were laws from godly men, Abraham knew to tithe to the King of Salem so God must have talked to him often. God has always set a standard for His children and when He called a congregation, a nation out of Himself by which to show the gentile pagan world His power and glory He gave them laws that would set them apart and teach them how to live among themselves and the world. Same standards God calls upon us today.

The whole of the OT is not about satans influence as it is mans unablity to govern and rule himself. Satan doesn't take a more prominate role in the NT, and I politely disagree with this statement of yours, "So I say much of the writings are based on the influence Satan has on us", you take out mans responsiblity and give too much credit to satan. Yes he has influence on this world, he and his fallen bunch but does not make anyone do anything so the responsiblity is on us and not satan. The Tanakh was written at the instruction of God, it is Gods words to man through prophets how to live, what pleases God, and God even graciously outlined the end of the age in the beginning of the book for us. How are the prophets writings base on satanic influence?

You asked, "Without Satan how will we know how not to act?" God sets up His standards in the beginning, listen to my voice obey Me and He blesses us abundantly. Adam knew how to act without satans influence because he listen to the word of God, so can we. Satan does not have influence over those who have Gods light yet we keep one foot in the world and one foot in His and when it comes to judgment day is satan going to be standing next to you and everyone else accepting half the blame and punishment for us, I don't think it works that way.

It has to be made clear to man that his influence is in the world and that even with rules we are incapable of completely resisting that influence, we are totally helpless and need another way to come into the presence of God.

God calls mans hearts the most wicked above all things, not satan and through the righteous rules of God, through His instructions and His Spirit we can overcome all things even the influence of satan. I am not totally helpless at all unless I choose to leave Gods light with Yeshua all things are possible. God defines righteousness, the fruits of the Spirit are all things that come through His Torah or instructions, His ways teach us to love, to walk with others, His instructions help us to fight satans influence. So we see things differently and thats ok also none of have the whole truth of anything except that God loves us and wants us to come to Him in all things, that Yeshua died and was resurrected and now is our High Priest and He will return, we can be assured that God will keep all His promises to all of His children who heed and follow His voice.

shalom,

Mizz

[childeye]

Regarding Satan, Rev 12 tells me he fell way before the cross. And the reaction to that explains the great joy of the heavenly beings at the time of Jesus' birth (v10).

I appreciate your take on this. I think we are referring to two seperate events, the fall vs, being cast out. I do not however see how this depicts Satan's being cast out of heaven before the cross. I understand that time may be different in heaven than here.

mike2 and anyone else, please take another look. Please try to be opened minded and not just follow the commentary in your bibles. Think for yourselves and consider:

Revelations 12:4-9, And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Here we see the dragon which is also this world system waiting to kill Jesus. We see Herod killing all males under two years of age in the place where Herod ecpects the child to be born. We see the Pharisees also seeking to destroy Jesus.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Christ is resurrected and now sits at the right hand of God as the Son of the morning now carrying the same name that was Lucifer.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Now war breaks out and Satan in heaven loses his place as Lucifer.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Here we see Satan cast out who was our accuser or adversary in heaven, who is now replaced by our advocate, Christ.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Now we see the saints on earth overcome Satan through the blood of the lamb refering to those who were once accused in heaven. Armed with the evidence of the Love of God, they are willing to die, even as the Christ for the sake of Love did, and are not going to accuse and condemn one another in hypocrisy, as Satan once had men do before Christ according to Old Testament standards or secular standards of this world system.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Now we see the heavens rejoicing that salvation and the Kingdom of God is now come through the power of Christ, which means before Christ was crucified there aws another power occupying heaven.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

We see Satan now sees he is cast down to earth which is after the Christ since he persecutes the woman who gave birth to the child, upon seeing he is cast down.

On earth we have witnessed the attempted extermination of the Jewish people and the persecution of those who have and preach the Love of Christ. We also are warned of a false gospel establishing a system of false christianity, that hides the power of the true Gospel by emulating the Old Testament form of worship.

John 12: 31-32, Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Here on earth while the dragon is waiting to devour the Christ, we see Jesus saying that judgment is coming and the prince of this world cast out and will be defeated through the cross. Let me show you why this change in heaven through the cross is so significant and important.

Hebrews 9: 1Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

2For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

3And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

5And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 10: 1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

As I said in an earlier post , The Old Testament was based on doubt, but the New is based on faith. From faith to faith. Do you understand?

Edited April 9, 2011 by childeye

[enoob57]

I already stated there was misunderstanding and so you agree is what I take you to mean. You were the one concluding Satan's "fall" had to be before the Garden of Eden. I have never read any scripture that verifies the fall happened when you say. I must therefore presume you believe the fall of Satan from heaven and the casting out of Satan from heaven are two different events, which I do not.

It is with this Scripture (it is not directed at you but the reasoning of Scripture)

John 8:44

44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because

there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

NASU

We know in the garden lies were used by the serpent unto Eve... therefore satan had fallen from righteousness-> for he is the father of all lies!

By this Scripture (below) we know God did not have anything to do with His choice in rebellion against God

Ezek 28:14-15

14 "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

NKJV

It is with established fact of Scripture that satan in order to be the father of lies... then the first recorded Scripture of a lie-> satan's

fall must have already occured or else there is another father and no such Scripture exists.... rejecting this means your reject the

facts Scripture has put forth! You know what Scripture and the importance of every jot and tittle is to God - all will be fulfilled!

However we see satan still granted entrance into Heaven in the Book of Job

Job 1:6-7

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.

7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the

earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

NKJV

So yes 'the fall of satan' and 'the casting out of Heaven' are two separate events and distinct in times and purposes...

For scripture clearly shows his place in heaven was not found anymore after Christ defeated him on the cross in Revelations. In any event I painstakingly gave you scripture for the purpose of proving to you through scripture that the Satanic image of god ruled in the vineyard of God during the Old Testament, and those who are held captive to this false image are his children. I gave you much scripture showing that they, the scriptures, testify to the Holy Spirit instructing a man and renewing the mind with the true Image of God, the Spirit of Christ.

You have given much everything and that is why you have to start over at the beginning and rebuild truth from the first error you have made in the Scriptures...

I have been instructed concerning scripture by the Holy Spirit. When I was a child, the only book I had was a bible. I've read it since I was able to read. I was raised Roman Catholic and yet I never knew Christ. When I was older, I had a period in my life where I was forced to call upon God for He was my only hope, and in my darkness He answered. I came to know His Son and understand scripture only after He gave me the Holy Spirit. The scriptures were then open to me, and I came to understand the purpose of God and I learned how to praise Him through His revealing Himself through His Christ. I came to understand that the scriptures mean nothing without the Holy Spirits guidance.

This is the stuff I was talking about as being a gnostic spirit... The Holy Spirit taught me - how do you know it was the Holy Spirit? There is evidenced error in you reasoning of Scripture from the very beginnings does the Holy Spirit teach error? The Scripture plainly teaches us God's order of learning in the New Testament Church

1 Cor 12:27-29

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles,

second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

NKJV

2 Tim 2:15-16

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

NKJV

So How do you justify your teaching is by God's Spirit and not by men? Which you claim to be the case!

I love scripture, but I have never lost my first love.

Then return to it and seek teachers to help you in the learning by the guidiance of God's Spirit!

I see no gain in aquiring any knowledge that puffs me up into thinking I am any better than he who has never read a word of scripture.

Here is the error-> you see knowledge of Scripture as something that can puff up but in fact the more you know of God and His glory the more one is of a broken spirit and contrite of heart for His perfection is the evidence of our lack of true reflected image back to Him! You actually attack knowing the Scriptures in one sentence and Say you love them in another.... Read what God's says of His Word

Take this journey in The Psalm of His Word:

Ps 17:4, Ps 18:30, Ps 33:4, Ps 33:6

Ps 56:4, Ps 56:10, Ps 56:10, Ps 68:11

Ps 89:34, Ps 103:20, Ps 103:20, Ps 105:8

Ps 105:19, Ps 105:19, Ps 105:28

Ps 106:24, Ps 107:20, Ps 119:9

Ps 119:11, Ps 119:16, Ps 119:17

Ps 119:25, Ps 119:28, Ps 119:38

Ps 119:41, Ps 119:42, Ps 119:43

Ps 119:49, Ps 119:50, Ps 119:58

Ps 119:65, Ps 119:67, Ps 119:74

Ps 119:76, Ps 119:81, Ps 119:82

Ps 119:89, Ps 119:101, Ps 119:105

Ps 119:107, Ps 119:114, Ps 119:116

Ps 119:123, Ps 119:133, Ps 119:140

Ps 119:147, Ps 119:148, Ps 119:154

Ps 119:158, Ps 119:160, Ps 119:161

Ps 119:162, Ps 119:169, Ps 119:170

Ps 119:172, Ps 130:5, Ps 138:2

Ps 139:4, Ps 147:15, Ps 147:18

Ps 147:19, Ps 148:8

Ps 138:2

2 I will worship toward Your holy temple,

And praise Your name

For Your lovingkindness and Your truth;

For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

NKJV

Gnosticism is the idea of an elevated spiritual mind that has no Scripture support yet is claimed to be from God... How simply to understand this is not of God= is that God requires us to test all things by the Scriptures!

Because many people who head off in the mysticism with no Scriptural support do so to their own peril! Here is an excellent comment on this

Larry the most important is God's Word if we are to find our way into God's pleasure and use... Love Steven