Can you loose your salvation once you are given it? Can you surrender

[nChrist]

Simple and blunt: Salvation is Eternal Security!

[Fez]

The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment?

Not quite the same thing....

Exactly one speaks of nature, the other speaks of actions. The nature was death with by the Cross, while the actions are daleth with by the Blood.

We are punished by our sins every day. Often it starts with the tongue, as in....

Jas 3:3 If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well.

Jas 3:4 Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs.

Jas 3:5 So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire!

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

Jas 3:7 For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind,

Jas 3:8 but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

Jas 3:9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God.

How many times have we as believers, used words to inflict harm, and regretted it afterward. I have. And I have been punished by it through subsequent actions set in motion by my words. So in that respect I was punished by my sin.

Punished for it? We live under Grace, and we will not be punished for sins already forgiven.

But we will be righteously judged and justice will be in effect.

That is an entirely different thing. It is not punishment (if it was, why the Cross and Grace?)

It is God's judgment (which I find a heap more scary and serious than punishment).

Give me punishment which is fleeting, rather than eternal judgment.

[Guest shiloh357]

Ok first of all we were discussing salvation not Eternal Security

You specifically stated that you had not studied Eternal Secuirty adequately. I was not under the impression we were discussing something else. This is entire thread is about Eternal Secuirty.

From that perspective I was asking my questions and part of my inadequate study (PROMTING my unaccepted apology) was your post #9 (very guarded writing ).

You did not offer an "apology." You were sorry if anyone was offended, but you were not sorry for your judgmental attitude. Being sorry that someone is offended at your statments is not the same as being sorry for those statements. So far, you have done nothing but try to avoid responsibility for what you said.

That does obligate me to learn a possibly false doctrine inside and out. Further I don

[Guest man]

He's also saying there's no punishment for sin. Notice the second half of the quote. "We are punished by our sins, not for them". I'm only assuming, but I'm sure he doesn't believe that.

You are taking his sentence further than he intended and are assigning it the values you want it to have, instead of taking it for what he meant to say.

And you're not assigning values to his words? The fact that you say "he meant to say", is an indication of the values you assigned to his words.

I don't have to read between the lines to understand what he's saying. He makes it perfectly clear. Have a look at the quote below.

Looking back at Fez's posting history and his stance on sin, I don't think you can make your case based on ONE sentence, what Fez really believes. You are misrepresenting his intentions and him, personally.

It's not a misrepresentation when someone says, "Yes this is what I believe". I go with what he said, not with what I assume he believes or what I think he meant.

"We are punished by our sins, not for them"

"Punished by our sins"........Really? You honestly believe that?

Yes in a roundabout way. I am not alluding to scripture here. Rob a bank (sin right?), you will end up being shot, or in prision. Punished by your sin. Drink too much, lose control, drive your car, kill another driver, end up in prison. Punished by your sin.

if you get my drift....

It looks like you are just wanting to pick a fight with someone who doesn't believe we lose our salvation.

I believe it's actually you that's looking to pick a fight. You're constantly answering for someone else. Why can't you let these people speak for themselves? As far as I know, everyone in this thread is an adult. No one here requires a babysitter.

In the future, I would appreciate it if you would just ignore me and anything I have to say. I don't hang on your every word. You may be very knowledgable, but your attitude toward others and your high opinion of yourself is a bit too much for me to endure. I do my best not to cross paths with you, please do the same for me.

[Guest shiloh357]

And you're not assigning values to his words? The fact that you say "he meant to say", is an indication of the values you assigned to his words.

No I am not assigning values to his words. I am taking his words in the context of the conversation. YOU are the claiming that he says there is no punishment for sin, which is NOT what Fez said. YOU are putting words in his mouth. You are arguing against a false argument All you have been doing is acting combative and now you are attacking Fez. You have not offered ONE profitible post in this entire thread.

I don't have to read between the lines to understand what he's saying. He makes it perfectly clear. Have a look at the quote below.

You are not reading at all, at least not with any normal sense of reading comprehension. You are simpy bent on painting Fez to be saying something he is not saying. You cannot really address the issue, so you manufacture an issue that is not there. You put the lie in his mouth and then argue against it. Your approach is unfair to Fez and downright dishonest, which proves you can't be trusted in a debate.

It's not a misrepresentation when someone says, "Yes this is what I believe". I go with what he said, not with what I assume he believes or what I think he meant.

Again, more misrepresentation. Fez did not mean what you are assigning to Him. He believes what he said as HE intended it to be understood, not in the way you painting it.

I believe it's actually you that's looking to pick a fight. You're constantly answering for someone else.

Happens all the time on other threads. People are free to break in on public conversations and we often answer posts that were not directed at us.

Why can't you let these people speak for themselves? As far as I know, everyone in this thread is an adult. No one here requires a babysitter.

I will respond in any thread and to any post I see fit to respond in. You simply want to attack people because so far, you have not provided anything intelligent, meaningful, substantive or important to this thread. All of your posts from the start have been nothing but combative. You even accuse Fez of ascribing to Karma, showing you don't know what you are talking about and don't even understand terms that you use. The problem here is not me or Fez. The problem here is you and your pride.

In the future, I would appreciate it if you would just ignore me and anything I have to say. I don't hang on your every word. You may be very knowledgable, but your attitude toward others and your high opinion of yourself is a bit too much for me to endure. I do my best not to cross paths with you, please do the same for me.

You have become nothing but a combative and downright mean poster. Everything with you is a controversy and I will continue to post to any one I feel I need to and that is you. If you post error, I will respond to you. Whether you have the courage or not to respond to me, is irrelevant. I will respond to your posts if only for the good of other posters particularly whenn they involves false accusations and borderline character assassination like you doing to Fez.

If that is too much of a problem for you on this board, I would remind you that there are other boards to post on and Google is a very good search engine.

[Guest man]

And you're not assigning values to his words? The fact that you say "he meant to say", is an indication of the values you assigned to his words.

No I am not assigning values to his words. I am taking his words in the context of the conversation. YOU are the claiming that he says there is no punishment for sin, which is NOT what Fez said. YOU are putting words in his mouth. You are arguing against a false argument All you have been doing is acting combative and now you are attacking Fez. You have not offered ONE profitible post in this entire thread.

I don't have to read between the lines to understand what he's saying. He makes it perfectly clear. Have a look at the quote below.

You are not reading at all, at least not with any normal sense of reading comprehension. You are simpy bent on painting Fez to be saying something he is not saying. You cannot really address the issue, so you manufacture an issue that is not there. You put the lie in his mouth and then argue against it. Your approach is unfair to Fez and downright dishonest, which proves you can't be trusted in a debate.

It's not a misrepresentation when someone says, "Yes this is what I believe". I go with what he said, not with what I assume he believes or what I think he meant.

Again, more misrepresentation. Fez did not mean what you are assigning to Him. He believes what he said as HE intended it to be understood, not in the way you painting it.

I believe it's actually you that's looking to pick a fight. You're constantly answering for someone else.

Happens all the time on other threads. People are free to break in on public conversations and we often answer posts that were not directed at us.

Why can't you let these people speak for themselves? As far as I know, everyone in this thread is an adult. No one here requires a babysitter.

I will respond in any thread and to any post I see fit to respond in. You simply want to attack people because so far, you have not provided anything intelligent, meaningful, substantive or important to this thread. All of your posts from the start have been nothing but combative. You even accuse Fez of ascribing to Karma, showing you don't know what you are talking about and don't even understand terms that you use. The problem here is not me or Fez. The problem here is you and your pride.

In the future, I would appreciate it if you would just ignore me and anything I have to say. I don't hang on your every word. You may be very knowledgable, but your attitude toward others and your high opinion of yourself is a bit too much for me to endure. I do my best not to cross paths with you, please do the same for me.

You have become nothing but a combative and downright mean poster. Everything with you is a controversy and I will continue to post to any one I feel I need to and that is you. If you post error, I will respond to you. Whether you have the courage or not to respond to me, is irrelevant. I will respond to your posts if only for the good of other posters particularly whenn they involves false accusations and borderline character assassination like you doing to Fez.

If that is too much of a problem for you on this board, I would remind you that there are other boards to post on and Google is a very good search engine.

I've never met anyone with understanding so complete that they actually know what others are thinking. You are truly amazing and gifted.

I was conversing with Fez, not you. I never had a problem with Fez, but you come in here and start stirring things up and all of a sudden I'm assassinating Fez's character. You need to get a clue. You're creating problems where there were none. All you do is argue with people. Since I've been here that's all you've ever done. If someone doesn't belong to your little clique, they're fair game for your attacks. You're not the be all end all. You're not the only one who has access to the truth. Get a clue sport.

I think you love reading your own words, so I gave you enough here for a really long post reply.

[Guest shiloh357]

I've never met anyone with understanding so complete that they actually know what others are thinking. You are truly amazing and gifted.

It's not a matter of knowing what other people are thinking. It is a matter of being able to follow the flow of a conversation and understand what someone says in the context of that conversation, which is evidently a skill that you choose not to exercize. I understand the intent behind by Fez's comment. You tried to tie it to an atheist, which and you tried to make it out to be Karma, both which are untrue and really unfair comments for you to make.

I was conversing with Fez, not you.

I know that. I will respond to any post I choose.

I never had a problem with Fez, but you come in here and start stirring things up and all of a sudden I'm assassinating Fez's character.

You had a very big problem with Fez; it was big enough to try and tie him in with an atheist. You had a very big problem and you tried to paint his comments in the worst light you possibly could, and even when Fez tried to clarify his statements, the false accusations kept coming and you accuse him of believing in Karma (another concept you don't have a very good grasp on). So to act like you two were having decent conversation until I came along is simply not true.

You need to get a clue. You're creating problems where there were none. All you do is argue with people. Since I've been here that's all you've ever done.

I have three words for you: Pot, kettle, black. I have had a lot of debates, but no more than anyone else, especially you. Debates are not bad and they occur all the time on this board so to single me out for special condemnation for that again shows that you cannot really offer anything intelligent, meaningful substantive or important to this thread.

If someone doesn't belong to your little clique, they're fair game for your attacks. You're not the be all end all. You're not the only one who has access to the truth. Get a clue sport.

You are exactly right. I am not end all be all. I simply know what I am talking about, and when you run up against something you can't refute or provide an intelligent response, you become more and more combative and then blame it on me. All you have done on this thread is argue and challenge people and pervert innocent coincidences into some sinister association with atheists or beliefs in false religions. I am not really the problem here. You have demonstrated that you can't follow the natural flow of a conversation and are too quick to assume the worst about Fez, so I will stay here and correct your false claims about him until they cease, or until you apologise to Fez for projecting motives into his arguments that were not true.

[Guest man]

I was conversing with Fez, not you.

I know that. I will respond to any post I choose.

You edited your post. What happened to the "I don't care"? Too harsh?

I never had a problem with Fez, but you come in here and start stirring things up and all of a sudden I'm assassinating Fez's character.

You had a very big problem with Fez; it was big enough to try and tie him in with an atheist. You had a very big problem and you tried to paint his comments in the worst light you possibly could, and even when Fez tried to clarify his statements, the false accusations kept coming and you accuse him of believing in Karma (another concept you don't have a very good grasp on). So to act like you two were having decent conversation until I came along is simply not true.

You have such a distorted sense of reality.

Why don't you try letting people speak for themselves? You're creating problems where there were none. You're an instigator. Plain and simple. You're not happy unless you're belittling someone. And just so you know, I'm not the only one that feels this way. I've talked with others on this site who've said the same thing. You need to lighten up.

You have demonstrated that you can't follow the natural flow of a conversation and are too quick to assume the worst about Fez, so I will stay here and correct your false claims about him until they cease, or until you apologise to Fez for projecting motives into his arguments that were not true.

So pious. Quite the little guardian you are.

[Guest shiloh357]

You edited your post. What happened to the "I don't care"? Too harsh?

No, it wasn't too harsh, because I don't care that you were talking to Fez. It would not make any difference who you were talking to. You were wrong in your assessment and that is why I responded. I edited my post to give it more substance.

You have such a distorted sense of reality.

No, I don't. Nothing you were saying to Fez was fair or true. The narrative as I presented it is there for anyone to see.

Why don't you try letting people speak for themselves?

I am not speaking for Fez. He is capable and has spoken for himself. Even when he does you pile on the false accusations. I am affirming what Fez said in the spirit and intent that he presented his claim. YOU have tried at least twice to misrepresent his remarks to be something they are not and twice it has been demonstrated to you that your assessment was wrong and still you persist trying to protect your wounded pride.

You're creating problems where there were none. You're an instigator. Plain and simple.

The problem was already there. You don't think making false accusations about Fez is a problem? Or is it only a problem when your claims are demonstrated to be false?

You're not happy unless you're belittling someone.

I am not belittling anyone. I am pointing to your unfair and dishonest treatment of Fez. YOU were making false accusations about Fez. You simply don't possess the integrity to admit that you read Fez wrong.

And just so you know, I'm not the only one that feels this way. I've talked with others on this site who've said the same thing. You need to lighten up.

I don't really care who you have talked to. I have crossed the line; I readily admit that, but that does not sanitize your dishonest handling of Fez's comments.

Quote

You have demonstrated that you can't follow the natural flow of a conversation and are too quick to assume the worst about Fez, so I will stay here and correct your false claims about him until they cease, or until you apologise to Fez for projecting motives into his arguments that were not true.

So pious. Quite the little guardian you are.

I don't abandon my friends. I certainly am not going to abandon them to false, and unfair criticism, from other spiteful and dishonest posters over something those posters are either unable to understand, or are simply too wicked to want to.

[luke22ministries]

I think I understand what you are saying. If what I am understanding is correct, you are saying that simply asking for forgiveness of sin without accepting Christ is in and of itself not enough. I would agree with that. If you dont accept Christ as your Lord and savior, I am not sure who you would be expecting forgiveness from. This sounds correct.

The wages of sin is death. If we are not punished for our sins, who executes this judgment?

Not quite the same thing....

Explain.

It's the reason why forgiveness of sins is not enough to be saved, we must be born again. Because there is a sin nature that has to die, as well as the acting out of that nature (sins). The physical and spiritual consequence of sin is bodily death and separation from God. When we are born again, the spiritual consequence has been removed but we still bodily die. Sins, the fruit of our sin nature, were forgiven on the cross, however the earthly consequences of those actions still remain and affect us. Not just our sins, but the sins of others as well.