Mathew 24

[Guest FishMan]

I hope you are right about Jews in Israel paying attention to the NT, but I disagree with your view that Jesus was referring to events that took place in 70 AD. The Abomination of Desolation has not yet occured.

[Guest FishMan]

It may yet occur again but it has already occured twice in history. Once 150 BC and again 70 AD

No, the fall of Jerusalem has occured, but the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel has not occured.

They are two different things.

[Guest FishMan]

Yod, Jews may see history as fulfilling this prophecy, but it is plainly revealed in the Word that the abomination that Daniel was speaking of, taken into context with II Thess 2 and Matthew 24, is an event only the Antichrist can fulfill, 3 1/2 years before Jesus returns.

Yes, I do know the history of what you speak of and do not deny those events happened, but I do not believe they could've fulfilled Dan 9:27, II Thess 2, Matthew 24, etc.

[Matthitjah]

Yod,

It's as flimsy as making christians into 144,000 jews.

Please don't say Raca to your brother,

I turn the other cheek.

Please forgive me if I have offended you with my reasoning.

We are all entitled to our opinions. My opinion on the 144,000 comes from logical written sources as well as my own reasoning, If you like I can quote these sources. They are reputable Christian interpretations.

Have peace with me.

Peace :inlove: Amen

[Guest tarrier]

I believe that most of this chapter was for the jewish believers who were hearing Yeshua at that moment....in other words it was fulfilled locally in Jerusalem during Vespasian's destruction of 70 AD as explained in an earlier post of this thread.

Hello YOD,

You are the first person I Know to address this.  Long ago, and, I now feel, far too early in my Christian walk, I read a book called "The Great Tribulation" by David Chilton.  What the author was teaching was, as often is the case, backed up by Scripture.  It was so contrary to what our church was teaching (a Pre-Trib rapture) that I put both book and Bible down for some time, as we continued to attend church, and I didn't want to get so confused as to which was the truth.  I understood the book to be saying that 70AD was the actual tribulation and we were living in the 1000 years.  In which case, what chance did I have?

Now that I am (yet again) trying to get the truth about the end times in my head and heart, I get stuck on this every time ~ just when I think I've understood something:  

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" Mat 24:34

This Generation.  

Which comes directly after Jesus tells of The Great Tribulation.  'We' are not 'this generation' are we?  What gives?

I must be so thick!!  

So you say that what happened in 70AD is what Jesus was referring to and that The Abomination of Desolation is still to come?  Do you find that controversial with many Christians?  

If a Christian had not read, did not have access to etc ~ additional writings to the Bible, concordances, etc, would you agree that this issue is difficult to grasp and understand?  I see that you are quite knowledgeable in the history of that time from your posts.  It's all new to me.  Since my experience with David Chilton's book, I've been 'shy' of other books.  

(And Shadow, dear brother, can you see what I'm getting at here?  I didn't mention this experience before when we were discussing the Strong's Concordance)

I thank you, YOD, for any feedback/ advice you can give me on this.  

Blessings,

Tarrier

[Guest tarrier]

THANK YOU!!

I just wanted to thank you all for baring with me.  I know that ya'll have discussed this so many times on this board, and I am truly grateful for your time and patience in going through it all again.  Thank you!!

Just so that you know ~ I am going through old posts from way back, examining, studying, trying to get a grip on the end times, and different views from the pre, mid and post trib raptures, as I feel the urgency to KNOW.  Furthermore, my dear children are asking me questions which I cannot answer.  In previous times, I have answered them quite boldly, and have been wrong.  I feel so responsible to teach them right, so that they don't see mamma's faith as 'blowing in the wind' or wishy-washy.  I am just so happy that the children are, in fact, asking me questions.  How blessed am I?  

Living far out of town has it's blessings, as we talk about these things on the way, despite the current heat, flies and sweat trickling down our faces! hee hee.....

So I just wanted to thank you all for your patience.  

May the Lord bless each of you,

Tarrier

[Guest tarrier]

I realize this doesn't fit the apocolyptic scenarios of most christians who are unaware of the history of Israel...but ask any devout jew.... they know it well.

Yod ~ aha!  

You have answered part of my previous question without me 'realising' it at the time I read this post (I'm now re-reading it).  Oh duuuuuhhh!!

Are you then a Jew?  

Blessings from a friend of Israel forever!

Tarrier

[Guest tarrier]

ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION

Yod wrote:  

This abomination made Israel desolate for about 2,000 years.

Mark Twain wrote that it was the most desolate place on earth [in the 1890's]

I believe it will probably happen again but please don't make the mistake of denying historical truth just so to make it fit your scenario.

Fishman replied:

Yod, Jews may see history as fulfilling this prophecy, but it is plainly revealed in the Word that the abomination that Daniel was speaking of, taken into context with II Thess 2 and Matthew 24, is an event only the Antichrist can fulfill, 3 1/2 years before Jesus returns.

Yes, I do know the history of what you speak of and do not deny those events happened, but I do not believe they could've fulfilled Dan 9:27, II Thess 2, Matthew 24, etc.

My question is:  

What is the abomination of desolation?  

TIA,

Tarrier

[Star]

Yod:  You know how I see this?  You know how the verse in Isaiah about Emmanuel looked like it was fulfilled in someone who was later called Emmanuel, but really wasn't until Y'shua came? That's how I see this portion of the Bible -- it might have been semi-fulfilled, but is on its way to be fully fulfilled later.

[Guest shadow2b]

Yod,

It's as flimsy as making christians into 144,000 jews.

Please don't say Raca to your brother,

I turn the other cheek.

Please forgive me if I have offended you with my reasoning.

We are all entitled to our opinions. My opinion on the 144,000 comes from logical written sources as well as my own reasoning, If you like I can quote these sources. They are reputable Christian interpretations.

Have peace with me.

Peace :inlove: Amen

It wasn't meant to be personal but I do apologize if it came across that way.

There can't be any "logical" explanations of this but feel free to quote your sources....I question their motives for interpreting this as anything but actual jewish kids.

Allow me to explain why this is such a hot button with me.

First, I am not jewish.....but I see christians acting like the older brother of the prodigal son. Too many of us are jealous that the Lord might kill the fatted calf and put a ring on our brother who is coming home. There is absolutely no need for envy yet I see far too many christians trying to assert that G-d wouldn't treat them any better than us.

Think about that....have we ever been treated better than them in past? He sacrificed the natural branches so we could be grafted in....and we somehow think it's because we are more righteous? It is by His grace alone that we stand

There is a verse in Luke where it says that "Jerusalem shall be trodden under the foot of the gentiles until the time of the gentiles has been fullfilled." This doesn't say until every gentile who will ever saved, gets saved, but rather speaks of a time when the Lord will again turn and favor Zion. This happened in 1967 when the jews recaptured Jerusalem after being controlled by gentile kings since the days of Nebuchadnezzar.

We should be about our Father's business and He has always desired the restoration of His people, Israel. Instead of being witnesses we have become lawyers and judges to them.

I believe that these 144,000 jews are the fulfillment of Romans 11:15....it is the hugest blessing that G-d could ever give the gentile nations!!!!

Why don't modern theologians want it to be them? The Puritans had no problem believing Israel would be restored though they never saw it.

Why can't it be exactly as the Word says it is? I believe this will be an army of very young men who are not afraid stand for Yeshua. In the middle east, that gets you killed.

There are probably this many young messianic jewish men in the world already....but the location of these particular tribes are still a mystery for now. Genetic DNA testing could change that rather quickly.

OK ....enough rambling....

heyyyyyyy yod-bro. I really like & am beginning to understand your teachings--position--?? no slight intended--

I truly love to LEARN--& I usually ask intense questions & or give intense answers that have been my understanding for thirty years or so & some that are more recent & have turned my feeble little old mind on end...doc luke & I have been busily engaged on the subject of the 144,000 lately & i asked him the same question you asked someone i.e.-WHY can't the scriptures mean exactly what they say & not have some secret,or symbolic meaning in every scripture?? the 144,000 jews are [iN MY OPINION] & based on the wording of REV.7.-1-thru.vs.8---they are mentioned again in REV.14.vss.1-thru.5

vs .4 --states the 144,000- are a FIRSTFRUITS unto GOD & THE LAMB-what is so very difficult to understand about these

verses?? these same 144,000- learn a new song[doctrine] that only they can sing--I traced the SONG back to [purity of doctrine] in strong's--- WHY can't GOD treat HIS chosen people as HE sees fit to, without any slight to US--just as JESUS stated to peter in john.21-20.thru.24.--based on these scriptures--john has not died--YET---REV.10.vs.11-- confirms john hasNOT died -YET--I also think john will die & is one of the two witnesses in REV.11.-vss.2.-thru.8---as of YET-- I haven't been able to get my very good bro.doc to  

see these events as I do.---ahhhhhh wellll--this too shall pass.---I very much agree with your position on the jewish people--There is NO-way I or any other christian should be offended by GOD being especially happy that HIS people ARE finally realizing JESUS as the one true messiah [deliverer] spoken of by moses.--YA-know yod that is exactly the problem that bugs me about the pre-trib rapture theory.-- WHY should WE be treated BETTER or differently than the so-called tribulation saints ?? AHHHH--yes WE are MORE righteous

MORE spiritual,WE kept the LAW--- as some teach!!! THAT really buGGGGSSSS me no end.-- as you state, so eloquently--it is by HIS-GRACE-ALONE WE stand.!!!! thank you so very much for your stand,teachings & confirmation of the TRUTH &

reality of GOD'S WORD---:thumb:-- canNot GOD do as HE pleases with what is HIS??---thanks bro. keep up the history teachings, I'M learning a bunch---shadow2b