removing a church family from church

[e lansing]

If a man and a women are passionately in love with each other, why wait.

God!.... Is the Lord the Lord of our lives, or is the Lord only Lord of parts our lives? Jesus said "why do you call me Lord if you do not do what I tell you"? which is to say that If he is not Lord of all of our lives, He not Lord at all. I glad you have seen your errors, and as a pastor I would be concerned with the rest of the choices in the marriage. Will you put God and his way aside when things get tuff? I am not saying this is you, I am just sharing with you my concerns with christians who start out with this type of mind set. I am sure you have a great marriage and trust that Jesus is the center of your marriage, however for those who may read this, troubles may fill there marriage and to them, I am speaking to.

e

[Smalcald]

I didn't mean to sound harsh.

If a couple is really in love time is part of knowing if you are in love or lust and sorting out that difference. Like I said I am not saying that young marriage is always wrong or a huge problem every couple is different. I guess my point is if the reason you are getting married at this moment is that you want to be able to have sex in a non-sinful way, that is not a good enough reason to get married.

But marriage is a good thing and I don't want to discourage young couples from getting married that is not my point at all.

I work with youth in our congregation on this very issue. One thing we talk about is the love test. If you are in love you would be willing to wait and your future husband or wife would be willing to wait. The reason is Christian love is forever and if you are in love it would make sense to wait to have sex as you will be with this person your whole life, you will have decades to have sex. If it is not love, well then waiting would not be worth it as you are both unsure of the future. Being in love would make it easier to wait not harder, it would be a great test of love or not.

[oldzimm]

If a man and a women are passionately in love with each other, why wait.

God!.... Is the Lord the Lord of our lives, or is the Lord only Lord of parts our lives? Jesus said "why do you call me Lord if you do not do what I tell you"? which is to say that If he is not Lord of all of our lives, He not Lord at all. I glad you have seen your errors, and as a pastor I would be concerned with the rest of the choices in the marriage. Will you put God and his way aside when things get tuff? I am not saying this is you, I am just sharing with you my concerns with christians who start out with this type of mind set. I am sure you have a great marriage and trust that Jesus is the center of your marriage, however for those who may read this, troubles may fill there marriage and to them, I am speaking to.

e

I think you might of misunderstood me on this one. When I said why wait, I wasn't saying why wait to have sex, I was saying why wait to get married.

I didn't mean to sound harsh.

If a couple is really in love time is part of knowing if you are in love or lust and sorting out that difference. Like I said I am not saying that young marriage is always wrong or a huge problem every couple is different. I guess my point is if the reason you are getting married at this moment is that you want to be able to have sex in a non-sinful way, that is not a good enough reason to get married.

But marriage is a good thing and I don't want to discourage young couples from getting married that is not my point at all.

I work with youth in our congregation on this very issue. One thing we talk about is the love test. If you are in love you would be willing to wait and your future husband or wife would be willing to wait. The reason is Christian love is forever and if you are in love it would make sense to wait to have sex as you will be with this person your whole life, you will have decades to have sex. If it is not love, well then waiting would not be worth it as you are both unsure of the future. Being in love would make it easier to wait not harder, it would be a great test of love or not.

I think the whole problem is parents allowing their teenagers to date at an early age and they succumb to pier pressure. For some reason they might think there is something wrong or they don't fit in if they don't have a boyfriend or girlfriend by the time they reach ninth grade.

The only reason young adults or anybody dates is because of the possibility they might find the right companion to be with the rest of their lives. How does a sixteen year old know when they found the right companion or is it just hormones kicking in?

[e lansing]

I think you might of misunderstood me on this one. When I said why wait, I wasn't saying why wait to have sex, I was saying why wait to get married.

sorry, that is what I thought you meant. Why wait to get married? I think time a qualifier, meaning in terms of being qualified for marriage. would you feel good about your child marrying at, 16, 17 18, years of age? My concern would be the missed placed priorities at hand. They would at the very lease graduate from high school and provide for me some tyoed of road map for their future, besides keeping it pure until that day. There are bigger issues in a marriage other than sex, finances tend to be the big one, and at that age what do they know about finances?

Ive seen the couple who got married because they say "this is the one", only to find out that she had two other childern she had never told him about, only because he could not wait 6 months. This type of thing happens for those who chose not to wait, they get aids, or sum type of std, or debt that was never revealed, or the one of the persons in that relationship changes into someone completly different after they got married, and you alway hear "I never knew that they would be like that".

These are some of my reasons as to why wait, you never can fully know what you get,but you should knew enough to make a better choice. My advice to any person thinking about marriage, wait as long as you can, go through marriage counseling, and ask all those awkward questions about their past and future, get blood test done, and if their children from their past, meet the parent of those kids to gain perspective, NO BODY LIKES NEGITIVE SUPRISES AFTER THE WEDDING DAY. If true love is at the core there shouldnt be anything to hide and therefore no issue with these types of request. As christians we should plan to only marry once, so we should do our best to be prudent so we can improve our odds of not getting a divorce.

e

[j102]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

without any more details on this matter i'll just say this the "church" has made up alot of commandments and rules that arn't really bibicly based.

it was mentioned that they were living together. However that does not mean by default that they are sleeping togather ( i know some would claim that its immoral because they would be tempted, but as it is written "even where sin abounds, grace abounds more and more, grace to stand up against temptation not to think that its ok to sin) and even paul and peter had women with them as they spread the gosple.

and also many others, myself included have found out by personal experience that the church sticks its noses where it just simply doesn't belong and by doing so causes strife and heartache leaving things worse rather than better.

and yes there is something called church discipline but it must be based on scripture and even then let scripture interprite itself in it proper context

The bold part sums it up completely. You chose to comment without bothering to actually read the entire thread, meaning you skipped over the places where we are told that they openly and without shame admitted that they were sleeping together (and lest you question it, they weren't just sleeping, but admitted to having a physically intimate relationship). And as to your other suggestion that the church was "sticking their noses where it just simply doesn't belong" you also missed the point that this couple sought out the pastor's counsel when seeking to have him marry them. Then they refused to heed his counsel and began sowing strife and discord among the rest of the church membership.

I do not mean to sound sharp or rude, but it is rarely wise for us to leap to comment upon the very first post in a thread like this one, or even on the tenth or fiftieth post if we have not taken the time to read all the posts that came before. We cannot have a full understanding of a thread without reading it's entirety. I know I have surrendered to that urge on previous occasions only to realize after further reading, or after having it blatantly pointed out to me, that I have missed a previous post that addressed my question, comments, or concerns. I not try not to be so hasty. While commenting here is not the same as having a personal, face to face conversation with someone, it is not so different when it comes to the discretion we ought to use before giving "voice" to our opinions and thoughts.

some people just happen to be more busy than others and have to make wise use of their time. like i said at the begining of my post, "WITHOUT ANY MORE DETAILS". sorry i just didnt have the time to read all the diffrent post about everyones diffrent p.o.v. on the subject... so thats why i stuck with the origanal post

[MeLessHimMore]

If a man and a women are passionately in love with each other, why wait.

Knowing that you mean "why wait to marry", I'm gonna submit something that may be hard for people to do, which they may indeed not do, but is still good medicine.

They would be wise to wait for this reason (I say wise because I'm not going so far as to say right or wrong but wise, to which there is a difference): in our society the young are growing up too fast but maturing slower than ever. They don't know what is real when it comes to the term "passionately in love" and they don't have a clue of what a true relationship really is. They are taking their cues from the likes of Snooki off of "Jersey Shore" and from their own homes that are filled with dysfunction, etc.... From the time of the generations around me (I'm 37) and on it gets progressively worse. AS A BELIEVER, if I had gotten married every time I "JUST KNEW" I was passionately in love I could have as many wives as Solomon. That was in the 90's. It is 10 fold worse now. I'm not saying that there are not young adults who can absolutely know they are in love and "meant to be" with that significant other. But that is generally the exception to the rule rather than the norm. Plus, saying such a thing as "we just knew we were suppose to be together" was made of more stern stuff when our grandfathers and great-grandfathers said it than when today's microwaveable generations say it. They're changing their minds at the same pace as changing underwear. So on the whole, I would put forth that if indeed they are passionately in love and know such a thing is "meant to be", they would be wise to see a thing grow and blossom. Time will show them and teach them much that will help ratify their "feelings" and indeed make them even stronger as a "meant to be" couple!

*sigh.....* We just can't wait for anything these days. It truly is sad that we cannot delay gratifications which would lead to better, more enriching outcomes. We can't save up a little money to pay for that item so we borrow ourselves into debt and bankruptcy because we had to have it NOW! The same is true for relationships, which in our society are just as similarly bankrupt. Such people as you suggest in your post would show maturity, wisdom, and would be well-advised to wait. There is only the rare exception to the rule. With such a covenant that God says shouldn't be undone, there is close to nothing to be gained by rashness and much to profit from delay. If humanity had the fortitude for such, I've no doubt the divorce rate would plummet (at least among believers). However, in these last days, I've little hope for such.

Elansing, what you did was right, scriptural and the godly thing to do. Yes, the painfulness and difficulty of doing so breeds some doubt about the decision. But some will say no. Some will only follow because they are fed and will show their heart as they walk away when things stop meeting their physical, fleshly needs. And a broken-hearted Jesus, watching the good but un-surrendered rich, young ruler for example, will allow them to do so.

Edited August 1, 2011 by MeLessHimMore

[winsomebulldog]

The only reason young adults or anybody dates is because of the possibility they might find the right companion to be with the rest of their lives. How does a sixteen year old know when they found the right companion or is it just hormones kicking in?

Speaking from experience (since I did, indeed, find the right one at the age of 16) I cannot express precisely how I knew he was the one. I simply did. Were my hormones involved. No doubt! But it was more than mere hormones. I just knew it. Then again, I was a Christian and I believed and understood that God has plans for us all, including the provision of the person He designed specifically to be our mate. Sadly, we often aren't willing to allow Him to be our guide. Instead we follow our hormones or our emotions alone, getting caught up in peer pressure or trends or society's wholly unbiblical notions of what relationships ought to be. (It doesn't take anyone long with a television to discover that by society's standards, not only premarital, but teen sex is "normal" and even "expected." These days, anyone who actually chooses a life of abstinence is considered odd.)

I think physical age is important when it comes to male/female relationships, especially when talking about younger ages. As my husband has pointed out through the years, he is 5 years older than I am. At 40 and 45, that doesn't mean much of anything. But at 16 and 21 - our ages when we met - that five years is huge. Ultimately, I believe we are all different. For the most part, I do not believe the average teen is remotely capable of making the kind of serious decision represented by committing to marriage. However, that is not to say that no teen can do so. There was more than one person who told me I was making a mistake when I became engaged to my husband 6 months after we met. More than 2 decades later, I reckon I can comfortably state that they were the ones making the mistake. Interestingly, my mother, who undoubtedly knew me better than anyone else in the world, never once questioned my commitment to my future husband. She didn't even question me when I walked in the door after our first real date (after which we stood outside and talked for hours about everything from our belief and trust in God to our feelings about having children in the future) and announced "He's the one." She responded with, "I know." So sometimes, God intervenes and places two people together even though neither of them is looking for a mate at the time. I know with every fiber of my being that He did exactly what with my husband and me.

We made mistakes. Including living together before we got married. But the fact remains that I knew very early on that I had met the man God had set aside for me. And after just passing 24 years since the day we met, I can't help but be grateful that I not only listened to the still, small voice that whispered within me that this man was the one I would spend the rest of my life with. But that I also refused to give up in the face of doubts from people I loved and respected, and even doubts from my husband, and countless other obstacles and situations that could easily have driven us apart. God had guided me to him and I wasn't going to let him go unless God directed me to do so!

[winsomebulldog]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

without any more details on this matter i'll just say this the "church" has made up alot of commandments and rules that arn't really bibicly based.

it was mentioned that they were living together. However that does not mean by default that they are sleeping togather ( i know some would claim that its immoral because they would be tempted, but as it is written "even where sin abounds, grace abounds more and more, grace to stand up against temptation not to think that its ok to sin) and even paul and peter had women with them as they spread the gosple.

and also many others, myself included have found out by personal experience that the church sticks its noses where it just simply doesn't belong and by doing so causes strife and heartache leaving things worse rather than better.

and yes there is something called church discipline but it must be based on scripture and even then let scripture interprite itself in it proper context

The bold part sums it up completely. You chose to comment without bothering to actually read the entire thread, meaning you skipped over the places where we are told that they openly and without shame admitted that they were sleeping together (and lest you question it, they weren't just sleeping, but admitted to having a physically intimate relationship). And as to your other suggestion that the church was "sticking their noses where it just simply doesn't belong" you also missed the point that this couple sought out the pastor's counsel when seeking to have him marry them. Then they refused to heed his counsel and began sowing strife and discord among the rest of the church membership.

I do not mean to sound sharp or rude, but it is rarely wise for us to leap to comment upon the very first post in a thread like this one, or even on the tenth or fiftieth post if we have not taken the time to read all the posts that came before. We cannot have a full understanding of a thread without reading it's entirety. I know I have surrendered to that urge on previous occasions only to realize after further reading, or after having it blatantly pointed out to me, that I have missed a previous post that addressed my question, comments, or concerns. I not try not to be so hasty. While commenting here is not the same as having a personal, face to face conversation with someone, it is not so different when it comes to the discretion we ought to use before giving "voice" to our opinions and thoughts.

some people just happen to be more busy than others and have to make wise use of their time. like i said at the begining of my post, "WITHOUT ANY MORE DETAILS". sorry i just didnt have the time to read all the diffrent post about everyones diffrent p.o.v. on the subject... so thats why i stuck with the origanal post

I wouldn't have cared if you hadn't asserted "this the "church" has made up alot of commandments and rules that arn't really bibicly based." (Which you then chose not to actually explain. Since it seemed quite evident that they were sowing division in the church and refusing to accept that what they were doing was wrong, I do not know where you got the notion that the pastor removing them from the church was not biblically based.) Then you followed that up with the suggestion that the church was merely being nosy and getting into this couples business for no reason. This made no sense to me since it was clearly expressed that they came to the pastor themselves asking about getting married. They sought out his counsel, not the other way around. And I was hardly expecting you to seek out everyone else's point of view, since that's hardly the relevant point. I was suggesting that you would have done well to at least read e lansing's replies to others' questions, thereby gaining a deeper understanding of what had actually happened.

If you are so busy that you do not have time to read through an entire thread, then perhaps a more wise use of your time would be to merely ask for clarification of the OP instead of making accusations about how the church was using unscriptural "rules" and sticking it's nose in where it didn't belong. (IE, you could have asked if the couple was merely living under the same roof or if they had confessed to being physically intimate as well. And you could have asked how the discipline was carried out, quoting the scriptures that deal with church discipline and asking of those standards were followed, instead of simply assuming that they were not.) As I said, I've done the same thing before and have learned that it's better to just keep my mouth shut and my opinion to myself than to post a knee jerk reply to something without taking the time to get the full picture. I'm sorry if my suggestion that you do the same hurt your feelings. That was not my intent.

[oldzimm]

The only reason young adults or anybody dates is because of the possibility they might find the right companion to be with the rest of their lives. How does a sixteen year old know when they found the right companion or is it just hormones kicking in?

Speaking from experience (since I did, indeed, find the right one at the age of 16) I cannot express precisely how I knew he was the one. I simply did. Were my hormones involved. No doubt! But it was more than mere hormones. I just knew it. Then again, I was a Christian and I believed and understood that God has plans for us all, including the provision of the person He designed specifically to be our mate. Sadly, we often aren't willing to allow Him to be our guide. Instead we follow our hormones or our emotions alone, getting caught up in peer pressure or trends or society's wholly unbiblical notions of what relationships ought to be. (It doesn't take anyone long with a television to discover that by society's standards, not only premarital, but teen sex is "normal" and even "expected." These days, anyone who actually chooses a life of abstinence is considered odd.)

I think physical age is important when it comes to male/female relationships, especially when talking about younger ages. As my husband has pointed out through the years, he is 5 years older than I am. At 40 and 45, that doesn't mean much of anything. But at 16 and 21 - our ages when we met - that five years is huge. Ultimately, I believe we are all different. For the most part, I do not believe the average teen is remotely capable of making the kind of serious decision represented by committing to marriage. However, that is not to say that no teen can do so. There was more than one person who told me I was making a mistake when I became engaged to my husband 6 months after we met. More than 2 decades later, I reckon I can comfortably state that they were the ones making the mistake. Interestingly, my mother, who undoubtedly knew me better than anyone else in the world, never once questioned my commitment to my future husband. She didn't even question me when I walked in the door after our first real date (after which we stood outside and talked for hours about everything from our belief and trust in God to our feelings about having children in the future) and announced "He's the one." She responded with, "I know." So sometimes, God intervenes and places two people together even though neither of them is looking for a mate at the time. I know with every fiber of my being that He did exactly what with my husband and me.

We made mistakes. Including living together before we got married. But the fact remains that I knew very early on that I had met the man God had set aside for me. And after just passing 24 years since the day we met, I can't help but be grateful that I not only listened to the still, small voice that whispered within me that this man was the one I would spend the rest of my life with. But that I also refused to give up in the face of doubts from people I loved and respected, and even doubts from my husband, and countless other obstacles and situations that could easily have driven us apart. God had guided me to him and I wasn't going to let him go unless God directed me to do so!

Like you, I met my wife when we were 16 and we got married when we were 19 and that was 37 years ago. When we got married it was tough making ends meet, yet we would of had the same financial problems if we would of been living together.

The big difference is when a man and a women live together and times get tough, it is too easy to throw in the towel, pack up your bags and separate. When you are married you make a vow for better or worst, (there was a time when a couple actually listened to the vows they made) that meant you are a team, you were two but now you are one and you rely on each other. When a man and a women make them vows to each other (in front of God), then it is not so easy to throw in the towel. When you make them vows and have faith in God, your saying God has brought us together as a team and he is our coach, we rejoice through the better times and the worst times will make us stronger, because we got through them together.

I still think 16 is too young for most teenagers today to make a life decision like marriage. We were lucky and found our mates for life at a young age, thanks to God. I think youth are immature through each generation, I'm sure I was less mature then my father at sixteen and he was less mature then his father. Remember 150 years ago it was not uncommon for people to get married 14,15,16 years of age (specially women), in that day an age you had to grow up fast, in order to survive.

[RCruise]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

Hello e lansing,

I have read your above post and considered it with interest and measure plus have read about half of the responses. There is a Biblical remedy spelled out clearly in several areas of the New Testament and, based solely by what you have posted in the first post, I do not see it fully followed. Understand that I am not judging you or your actions but, looking at the reproof via the light of Scripture. Paul clearly rebuked the Corinthians for not judging sin in their local body (1 Cor. 5 and 6). But the expose' on "how" begins in Galatians:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

So we see the methodology prescribed with warning that we be aware of our own limitations and approach the person humbly in the Holy Spirit and meekness (without our own pride and agenda involved). Often, we as Pastors and leaders can be more offended by actions of congregants fearing an "undermining" is under way to divide the congregation but, more so, to "dethrone" ourselves. Handling these matters in the wrong way will actually further satan's agenda to do just that.

But Jesus said it best on how we are commanded to handle such:

Matt 18:15-17 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

In every situation, each individual must be dealt with individually and ourselves void of any "self" agendas or personal fears of outcome. Each one must be dealt with personally first between them and the offended one or the Pastorate of the Church. If they will not repent nor listen and continue, then take witnesses. You had said there is a group of Pastors over you and these would be the ones most likely to take with you. Once it is established before yourself and the witnesses that this person is not willing to repent (whether it is living in sin or, the sin of gossip and division), and they refuse to listen to the Spiritual heads over that congregation, then it must be given as a witness against them before the congregation. Keep in mind that all of these actions from the beginning to the last must be done in humility and lead of the Holy Spirit. A Pastorate and Church that practices this Biblical prescription will only grow and satan is defeated in his attempts to undermine the local body of Christ. Oh, some will leave on their own accord. And some of the congregation will not ostracize the guilty parties but, if the Full Gospel and teachings of Christ are preached continuously and the Holy Ghost is not restrained in that Church, I guarantee you the "Kitchen will become too hot" for the guilty to remain without repenting.