Omniscience

[Guest shiloh357]

Time is more fundamental than space and should not be confused with it. God fills the universe and is aware of everything at a particular time. It does not mean He actually exists in the past and future since this would also mean we must be there in reality (creation would be co-eternal with God and Jesus would still be on the cross, etc.). The Bible clearly portrays God as experiencing sequence, succession, duration, parallel to our history. He hears the agent pray in real time. He cannot hear us pray in the future if we do not even exist. Eternal now should never have become a viable view in church history since it is unbiblical and illogical. Instead of speculating without proof, why not adopt a more coherent, common sense view that does not contradict Scripture nor does it limit God, properly understood. Tradition is not always truth.

If you are going to use the Bible and refer to it, would you please make scriptural arguments? So far you say a lot about the Bible, but you don't really back up any of your assertions about the Bible with exegesis of any passages. Simply making claims about what the Bible says is insufficient.

Please provide the passages that support your position for review. Provide relevant exegesis, as well.

[Openly Curious]

name='methinkshe' timestamp='1312355723' post='1703334'

name='Openly Curious' timestamp='1312335040' post='1703289'

Everything that is in the natural was in the spiritual first even you and I even were formed in the belly and GOD knew us spiritually before we ever came out of the womb as the prophet Jeremiah in.......

Jeremiah 1:4-7 Then the word of the Lord came unto me saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child. But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

The knowledge of God goes all the way back to his beginning and goes on into the future where his end is past finding out. Just as GOD has a beginning that goes beyond human understanding he also has an end that also goes beyond human understanding that goes on forever. According to the foreknowledge of GOD he gave man a beginning a time to be born and a time to die for it is appointed once for man to die. After death our never-ending future will begin for all eternity.

For those who claim that there will be no future as it is going to come to pass and will be in shock at the rude awakening on that day and hour. For Jesus Christ was prophesied that he would come lo, and riding on a donkey which is only one of the many that foretells of his birth. It is easier to believe a lie over the truth as it makes it more soothing to believe that over the truth. I'm reminded of the friends of Job who tried to convince him that he sinned against God and that he needed to repent. Job held onto his integrity even though he was mocked by his friends. Job held onto his faith and never let go of it even though he didn't understand all that came upon him. Job had a future as God restored to him double of all he had before.

God has given to us a future and a hope which was foretold about Jesus who would come born of a virgin and it was through him we could have our sins forgiven and have everlasting life. God has spoken to man through his word and showed them things to come like Joseph who had a dream where his brother's were going to bow before him and didn't like the thought of being humble before him. Joseph went through alot of things but God gave him favor and promoted him to the second most powerful in all throughout the land of Egypt beside Pharoah and there came a time when his brother's had to come to buy food and they did bow before Joseph all of this was foretold to him and it came to pass in the future as the Lord had said it would.

The deliver was foretold to come and lead the people of God out of Egypt in which they had been made slaves and that deliverer was Moses whom God called and then sent him out to lead them out. This was the future that happened according to the will of God and to deny the future is no where close to the truth and it is to deny your own life that was in the mind of God before you were even formed in the belly and born in the womb. God had your own future in his mind before he even created you first you was in the past, now you are in the present and by faith like Abraham for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (that sounds like Revelation 21:1-27 (for our future home shall be GREAT)

Hebrews 11:1-3 NOW FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were made of things which do appear.

Everything in the spiritual was before it was in the natural.

Nice post - thanks

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Everything in the spiritual was before it was in the natural.

Building on that, could it then be said as follows?

Since everything that God wills/plans/purposes, IS (because that is a characterisitic of omnipotence) then it must be that what IS in the spiritual "unfolds" in the natural, over time.

Yes, I do agree that what is in the spritual unfolds in the natural over time. For example, the coming of Christ was prophesied all the way back to the days of Abraham by an oath or by promise this was before the law of Moses was set in order. (Genesis 15:6,13, 14, Hebrews 9:12-28). All the blood of the bulls and goats did not appease the wrath of God nor could it be it took only the blood of Jesus to appease the wrath of God. Now I hope you can see that the coming of Christ was foretold to come into the world born of a virgin women. Let's see what Jesus said during his ministry.....................................

John 7:6-8 Then Jesus said unto them, "MY TIME IS NOT YET COME:" but your time is always ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it , that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto the feast; FOR MY TIME IS NOT YET FULL COME"

These few scripture are dealing with the feast of tabernacles and the disciples tried to talk Jesus into going through Judaea so they could see the works Jesus was going to do. Jesus did not go up to the feast of tabernacles and some wanted him to show himself openly and no longer in secret. But some of the disciples doubted because they wanted Jesus to show himself to the world. But you can see in the verses above what Jesus said to his disciples. Even though the prophesied Messiah was here on the earth but still yet there was an appointed time for his crucifixon, his death, and his ressurection but all would be done at the "appointed time." There are other examples when Jesus said, that it was not yet his time that shows what is in the spiritual unfolds in the natural overtime.

Moreover, God must live in an eternal present if He is omnipotent because otherwise He would be dependent on events unfolding before executing His next move, so to speak, and dependency does not equate to omnipotence.

I agree that God does live in an eternal present, God said I am the same Yesterday (the past), Today (the present) and Forever (everlasting). God is everywhere for it was David who said, if he made his bed in hell the Lord would be there. For God has no limits or bounds where he can be anywhere at anytime and all knowing of this universe. God does have an order to his creation and because of that his predestined will things will come to pass when he wills them to happen. I know what you were trying to bring about when using the word "dependent" it is hard to find the appropriate word to describe things as we would like but the future is bound by the will of God.

Jesus said, referring to His second coming in Matthew 24: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." And that must require foreknowledge of how every person that has ever lived will act - past, present and future.

The fact that Jesus knew about a "day" and an "hour" shows that he had "foreknowledge" about the second coming. and that he would come again to this earth a second time but nobody was going to know the day nor what hour the second coming of Jesus was going to happen. Jesus has a role to fulfill in the end-times and we shall see him in all his glory. There are scripture that shows us the order of the future work of Jesus yet to be fulfiled starting with the resurrection of Jesus the firstfruit risen from the dead..........................................

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive......But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; "AFTERWARD" they that are Christ's at his coming....."THEN" cometh the end, "WHEN" he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father: "WHEN" he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power......For he must reign, "TILL" he hath put all enemies under his feet......The last enemy "THAT SHALL" be destroyed is death.......For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, "IT IS MANIFEST THAT HE IS EXCEPTED," which did put all things under him.......And "WHEN" all things shall be subdued unto him, "THEN" SHALL THE SON ALSO HIMSELF BE SUBJECT UNTO HIM THAT PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIM , THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL"[/u]...............(capps for emphasis only).

These scripture shows Gods order of events and the last one will be is when Jesus comes to the Father and subjects his own will unto God the Father. There is alot of information within these six verses. For it is Jesus who conquers all then he takes it all and put it under the authority and power of God. "When this is all done Jesus takes himself and becomes subject to God the Father." Does that make Jesus any less being diety because he is fufilling the Lords will? Absolutely not it just shows his submission to the Fathers will that he had been chosen to do. But as Jesus came the first time and fulfilled the will of the Father who gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on him shall have everlasting life. But he shall come a second time and do the Lords will.

A slight digression: having just quoted the above verse, I am puzzled as to why the Father has knowledge that the Son does not. Is Jesus saying that in His humanity He does not have this knowledge? Because if the Son does not have this knowledge in His divinity, would that not make the Son lesser than the Father?

I do not think that Jesus not knowing the day nor the hour when his second coming will happen makes him any less part of the trinity because he does not know the day nor the hour.

For Jesus did have the knowledge of his second coming to this earth to fulfill all the final end-time things as he spoke about this in Matthew 24.

Some help would be appreciated on this point.

As lame as it might seems in why the Father was the only one who knows the day and the hour when the second coming will be and none other.

IMO it was hid from Satan as God didn't share the day nor the hour so as to keep it hidden from Satan and his demons so that he could 't interfer in the second coming of Christ. But God has everything set and set in the order that he wants everything to come to pass according to his set will and purpose and in his order.

[godrulz]

Perhaps a specific point, not a paragraph?