Matthitjah Posted July 29, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2011 but I still have not found anything that leads me to believe that Heylal/Lucifer and Satan are the same individual. That's because of your position on full pre-terism. He was created for the purpose of being evil. So God created evil? Please support this position with scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I looked at your link and I'm still not seeing the difference between Lucifer and Star Benshachar. Either way it means shining one or morning star appointed to the dawn. satan when he was named Lucifer was the covering Cherub. he was appointed to it. However, he fell and so too his nature changed. I'm thinking of a classic literary and modern motion picture adaptation. That adaptation would be Smeagol and Gollum. "Lucifer" means "light bringer" - not shine, shining star, etc. that is seen in the Hebrew. My point is not about whether or not the passage is speaking of Satan, but rather than of his having the former name of Lucifer. I fail to see how the text supports this? And I fail to see how the Latin "Lucifer" is by any means a proper translation of heylel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2011 I looked at your link and I'm still not seeing the difference between Lucifer and Star Benshachar. Either way it means shining one or morning star appointed to the dawn. satan when he was named Lucifer was the covering Cherub. he was appointed to it. However, he fell and so too his nature changed. I'm thinking of a classic literary and modern motion picture adaptation. That adaptation would be Smeagol and Gollum. "Lucifer" means "light bringer" - not shine, shining star, etc. that is seen in the Hebrew. My point is not about whether or not the passage is speaking of Satan, but rather than of his having the former name of Lucifer. I fail to see how the text supports this? And I fail to see how the Latin "Lucifer" is by any means a proper translation of heylel? When I read your link it basically said the same thing that Scofields does. It's more like "Light Bearer" or "Appointed Carrier of the Dawn." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 1, 2011 When I read your link it basically said the same thing that Scofields does. It's more like "Light Bearer" or "Appointed Carrier of the Dawn." Where is the word or attachment "bearer" or "carrier" found in the Hebrew text? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 but I still have not found anything that leads me to believe that Heylal/Lucifer and Satan are the same individual. That's because of your position on full pre-terism. He was created for the purpose of being evil. So God created evil? Please support this position with scripture. Isaiah 45:7 God created the principle of evil. If God did NOT create the principle of evil, then there is another Creator, for it is written: ALL Things were created by him, and without Him, nothing was made that was made. (John 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2011 but I still have not found anything that leads me to believe that Heylal/Lucifer and Satan are the same individual. That's because of your position on full pre-terism. He was created for the purpose of being evil. So God created evil? Please support this position with scripture. Isaiah 45:7 God created the principle of evil. If God did NOT create the principle of evil, then there is another Creator, for it is written: ALL Things were created by him, and without Him, nothing was made that was made. (John 1) Au Contraire Mon Frer! Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. It is your theology that's skewed. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Isaiah 45:7 does not state that God created evil. What 45:7 is saying is that while He allows it, He controls the limitation thereof and how it is used for His own ends. You should read Job. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2011 God MUST be the author of all things, where else do you think it is going to come from? There is no other creator. In the beginning was God and nothing else. 1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him. 1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you. 1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the harmful spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.27 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2011 God MUST be the author of all things, where else do you think it is going to come from? There is no other creator. In the beginning was God and nothing else. 1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him. 1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, "Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you. 1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command your servants who are before you to seek out a man who is skillful in playing the lyre, and when the harmful spirit from God is upon you, he will play it, and you will be well." How about a harmful spirit allowed by the Lord and used for the Lords ends and means? Sincere question. What prevents any Nation from Judgment? P.S. What do you do with scripture like this? Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2011 So, all good gifts are from God, doesn't imply that God cannot create potential for evil. You haven't answered my question, so no dodging. If God creates all things, and in the beginning there was just Him, where did evil come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xequedox Posted August 1, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 65 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 13 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/28/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/24/1993 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Lucifer before the fall then Satan, devil and in Revelation Apollyon/Abaddon yes he was the bearer of light through the conquering of darkness , only to fall because once making the proclamation that his power was not of God but of his own ,that is what i believe the darkness took over thus in CONTRAST to have such power of light to which was once lost (having been in honor next to Gods very own son) he was appointed the leader of the most Evil. (but thats just me saying this, haha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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