UndecidedFrog Posted August 20, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2011 You are engaged in a futile endeavor, UF. You are blind to the Truth and will find nothing until you open your eyes and see. Hi MorningGlory, Am I? Is Shiloh62 mistaken in his recommended method to uncover evidence to support the existence of your god? I am not blind to the truth. I can see very well, even at my age. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 21, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) Yes, I truly do not believe in god/s. Ah Ha I wasn't a false accuser... Sorry Steven, You were a false accuser. Please be aware of the difference between: 1) I believe that god/s exist. 0) I do not believe in any god/s. -1) I believe that god/s do not exist. Which category do you think I belong? Which category did you, mistakenly, at first, thought I belonged? Regards, UF Edited August 21, 2011 by UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted August 21, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,373 Content Per Day: 7.99 Reputation: 21,555 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted August 21, 2011 Yes, I truly do not believe in god/s. Ah Ha I wasn't a false accuser... Sorry Steven, You were a false accuser. Please be aware of the difference between: 1) I believe that god/s exist. 0) I do not believe in any god/s. -1) I believe that god/s do not exist. Which category do you think I belong? Regards, UF Four as the ball sails out of sight... are we talking english here.... is this a trick question -> I pass this to my sister MG... She seems to know ya quite well Love Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 21, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2011 [Four as the ball sails out of sight... are we talking english here.... is this a trick question -> I pass this to my sister MG... She seems to know ya quite well Love Steven Steven, Allow me to help you. Atheists claim that they have no beliefs in deities. This does not mean they are claiming that god/s do not exist. They will have no way of knowing if anything does NOT exist for they do not know the contents of the entire universe and beyond. Another way of looking at it is that atheists LACK beliefs in any god/s. It isn't a trick question, and it is entirely english. Regards, UF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted August 21, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 21, 2011 If you truly do not believe, UF, why waste your time here? Shouldn't you be off living in nonbelieverville where you don't have to read posts about God? Hi MorningGlory, Yes, I truly do not believe in god/s. I spend my time here because I enjoy reading about what christians say, to each other, as well as to non-believers, like me. I enjoy reading about their various views on things. Where I live is irrelevant to what I read. I also enjoy interacting with some believers who are kind and considerate. I enjoy comparing these behaviors against other behaviors that are also claimed as "christian" behavior. I like to observe how christians claim certain things and then watch how they behave. I have learned that although someone may claim something, their true belief is actually demonstrated by their actions and inactions. I am a student of human behavior. How about you? Regards, UF Since you asked....I am a believer in the Living God and Jesus, the Messiah. I am praying for you to find what you're seeking......and you ARE seeking or you would not be here. Ah Ha I wasn't a false accuser... No, Steven, you sure weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 If god exists, and loves me, and wants me, and wants to be my god, he can show himself to me. Anytime. He Calls Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18 And He Tells You For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11 He Loves You So For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 And Yet.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByFaithAlone Posted August 22, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 730 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/19/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1993 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Steven, Allow me to help you. Atheists claim that they have no beliefs in deities. This does not mean they are claiming that god/s do not exist. They will have no way of knowing if anything does NOT exist for they do not know the contents of the entire universe and beyond. Another way of looking at it is that atheists LACK beliefs in any god/s. It isn't a trick question, and it is entirely english. Regards, UF Hello UF. Let me start off by saying that I respect your position even though I disagree with it. For some reason, many Christians seem to think that all atheists are antitheists and don't seem to grasp the difference. Thank you for clarifying this important point so hopefully we will prevent these little misunderstandings in the future (although this seems to pop up a lot unfortunately). I was just wondering about a few things. You say that "[Atheists] will have no way of knowing if anything does NOT exist for they do not know the contents of the entire universe and beyond." Just as a matter of interest, do you believe in multiverse or string theory? Both of those are arguably impossible to prove in the status quo. Could I possibly contend that the "God hypothesis" is just as valid as multiverse as a response to the problem of the fine tuned universe? I am merely asking if both are equally valid from a scientific point of view? Eager to hear your thoughts. Shalom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UndecidedFrog Posted August 22, 2011 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 2 Topic Count: 16 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,063 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/02/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Hello UF. Let me start off by saying that I respect your position even though I disagree with it. For some reason, many Christians seem to think that all atheists are antitheists and don't seem to grasp the difference. Thank you for clarifying this important point so hopefully we will prevent these little misunderstandings in the future (although this seems to pop up a lot unfortunately). Hello ByFaithAlone, Thanks for your response. Yes, it seems many christians fail to differentiate between atheists and anti-theists. However, given their familiarity with dichotomous thinking (e.g. either I am a servant of god or a servant of satan), I am not surprised. I was just wondering about a few things. You say that "[Atheists] will have no way of knowing if anything does NOT exist for they do not know the contents of the entire universe and beyond." Not only atheists, everybody. No one knows the entire contents of the universe. Hence, they cannot say that X does NOT exist. X might be hiding in the corner of the universe that is not seen. Hence it is not possible to claim this negative. You can substitute your god, someone else's god, or the invisible pink unicorn, or an orbiting teapot for X. That is why most reasonable people believe only on evidence to support the postitive claim, as nobody can produce everything (in the universe) to support a negative claim. However, if someone makes a positive claim, like X exists! The obvious next question should be where? Just as a matter of interest, do you believe in multiverse or string theory? Both of those are arguably impossible to prove in the status quo. Could I possibly contend that the "God hypothesis" is just as valid as multiverse as a response to the problem of the fine tuned universe? I am merely asking if both are equally valid from a scientific point of view? The multiverse or string theories are theories that go way over my head. You would have a better time discussing these with viole. I do not yet understand them, much less believe them. You can contend anything you wish. However, until I see the credible evidence that supports a hypothesis, I cannot believe it. You may argue a finely tuned universe if you want, however, I will argue against that. I do not see a finely tuned universe. Much of my views against a finely tuned universe stem from the arguments against the anthropic fallacy. If you really set your heart on this argument, you may proceed, but I think rehashing other people's positions isn't really very interesting. Nice to meet you. Regards, UF Edited August 22, 2011 by UndecidedFrog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noobie Posted August 22, 2011 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 177 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 23 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted August 22, 2011 Hello UF. Let me start off by saying that I respect your position even though I disagree with it. For some reason, many Christians seem to think that all atheists are antitheists and don't seem to grasp the difference. Thank you for clarifying this important point so hopefully we will prevent these little misunderstandings in the future (although this seems to pop up a lot unfortunately). Hello ByFaithAlone, Thanks for your response. Yes, it seems many christians fail to differentiate between atheists and anti-theists. However, given their familiarity with dichotomous thinking (e.g. either I am a servant of god or a servant of satan), I am not surprised. I was just wondering about a few things. You say that "[Atheists] will have no way of knowing if anything does NOT exist for they do not know the contents of the entire universe and beyond." Not only atheists, everybody. No one knows the entire contents of the universe. Hence, they cannot say that X does NOT exist. X might be hiding in the corner of the universe that is not seen. Hence it is not possible to claim this negative. You can substitute your god, someone else's god, or the invisible pink unicorn, or an orbiting teapot for X. That is why most reasonable people believe only on evidence to support the postitive claim, as nobody can produce everything (in the universe) to support a negative claim. However, if someone makes a positive claim, like X exists! The obvious next question should be where? Just as a matter of interest, do you believe in multiverse or string theory? Both of those are arguably impossible to prove in the status quo. Could I possibly contend that the "God hypothesis" is just as valid as multiverse as a response to the problem of the fine tuned universe? I am merely asking if both are equally valid from a scientific point of view? The multiverse or string theories are theories that go way over my head. You would have a better time discussing these with viole. I do not yet understand them, much less believe them. You can contend anything you wish. However, until I see the credible evidence that supports a hypothesis, I cannot believe it. You may argue a finely tuned universe if you want, however, I will argue against that. I do not see a finely tuned universe. Much of my views against a finely tuned universe stem from the arguments against the anthropic fallacy. If you really set your heart on this argument, you may proceed, but I think rehashing other people's positions isn't really very interesting. Nice to meet you. Regards, UF I agree. The problem with so called cosmological, fine tuning and moral arguments is not really their contents, which can be discussed, but the claim that they are the only viable ones. They are not. As long as we have different non self contradicting models, then the (non necessarily Christian) God hypotheses enjoys the same level of plausibility, at best. But even if we had no realistic alternative naturalistic explanations for the Universe, that would still not allow us to accept the God hypotheses as certain. There have been too many misterious things in the past that had no explanations and calling God for these cases has always been proven premature. Conversely, if we find a proven naturalistic model that shows how the Universe could have originated, that does not exclude the possibility of a God. His creation power would just move to the next level. My point is that belief in God is an act of faith and trust and His existence cannot be proven logically or mathematically. If I said I agree it would be against my faith but however I do understand what you both saying. Also UF we see differently about a subject and I vote to agree to disagree if that's okay with you. My first time meeting you and I did not foresee our first encounter to begin like this. There is much better subjects to debate than something as silly as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xyluz Posted August 22, 2011 Group: Senior Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 47 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 565 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 527 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2010 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 22, 2011 This is the challenge, you think too much. You want everything to be logical... i said it before and i will say it again - i know too much about God and there is nothing to make me doubt. And as a matter of fact, i am not trying to convince you... Yes, you have challenged me, and I have responded. Yes, I think. I know some would prefer me not to think. However, I have a brain, and I must exercise it. I recognize that people are not always logical, and behave in very strange ways. I appreciate the fact that you are not trying to convince me. I would appreciate it even more if you could refrain from insulting non-believers. We are not blind or naive. I am experienced and see only too well. Regards, UF I want to ask you a question my friend... Are you sure you don't believe in God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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