Guest man Posted May 22, 2013 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Common man we need to reason here! Sin is here is that God's? Did God create that? The discussion is money, not sin. Thats right! However you so easily included money in the 'all' God created a very sloppy hermeneutic that cannot be accepted as valid till it is proved by Scripture that God designed the monetary system of money (origins)! You do realize you're arguing against scripture.......................................right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 22, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,193 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 22, 2013 Common man we need to reason here! Sin is here is that God's? Did God create that? The discussion is money, not sin. Thats right! However you so easily included money in the 'all' God created a very sloppy hermeneutic that cannot be accepted as valid till it is proved by Scripture that God designed the monetary system of money (origins)! You do realize you're arguing against scripture.......................................right? By this reply you don't even know where I am at with the discussion and as such we cannot reason together ... and I was engaging with eagle Let us continue please! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted May 22, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2013 Steven, what I've seen IMO is Scripture being taken out of context. Let's do it more concisely because it seems I didn't address all the Scriptures you presented and you didn't address all the Scriptures I presented. Would you like to go first with the first passage? I propose we won't move on until each passage is addressed and either is determined to support or not support the idea that money is evil. God bless, GE Okay... let's begin with the origins of money! Is it of God or this world? Very well. Progress. What passage do you present that money is evil (of this world)? Not to be argumentative nor contrary but you and I can be direct and very specific with one another-> as this is a very important topic as is for the Christian to resolve in ones own heart! That's clever but not to point nor the directed question to you- were talking about origins in Scripture= 1st seen (wealth, riches, money)- Is it of God before the fall or after from this world and fallen men's design? Your response please to the question... Let's use standard basic hermeneutic principles as we go for context... Origins is the most important aspect of this topic and as God has placed His hermeneutic of origins (Genesis) at first so should we... Love, Steven Lol. 1 page (and 10+ posts) later... What I proposed was a passage to discuss our respective positions as seen through Scripture. You present one we'll discuss. Determine if it supports your positions in context or not. Then I'll present one. Determine if it supports my position in context or not. And so on and so forth... I'm interested in what Scripture says. And I have changed my mind in the last year on tithes/giving since joining this site so with prayer, consideration, and most importantly God's Word I'm willing to discuss your position and present my thoughts. Okay... let's begin with the origins of money! Is it of God or this world? Is the origin of money of God or of this world? So I'll ask again. Please take a position and present Scripture to support your position. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 22, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,193 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 22, 2013 The first we see of the precious metals as being a system for barter Gen 13:2 . Now it is not listed as from Egyptian gifting Gen 12:16. Therefore we must retrace the origin of Abram to see where the idea came from... By this map we see UR Abrams first mention Gen 11:28... also looking at the map we see what is called the fertile crescent which runs along the rivers up around near Haran and down into Caanan into Egypt. A long and historic trade route of Babylon and Egypt. Abram a descendant of Shem Noah's son and no more indicators from preflood Biblical or archeological... In doing a study of Babylon one finds God separating Himself from the system that Babylon represents and I believe it is specific- making precious metals an equality to God's food provision... because common sense will quickly tell you true value in life when hunger and survival come knocking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted May 22, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 22, 2013 Okay Steven I will study this further. So the passages your presenting are... Gen 13:2 2 Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. Gen 12:16 16 He {Pharaoh of Egypt) treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels. Gen 11:28 28 And Haran {Lot's father and Abram's brother} died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans. I will take a look at this further tomorrow. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 The first we see of the precious metals as being a system for barter Gen 13:2 . Now it is not listed as from Egyptian gifting Gen 12:16. Therefore we must retrace the origin of Abram to see where the idea came from... By this map we see UR Abrams first mention Gen 11:28... also looking at the map we see what is called the fertile crescent which runs along the rivers up around near Haran and down into Caanan into Egypt. A long and historic trade route of Babylon and Egypt. Abram a descendant of Shem Noah's son and no more indicators from preflood Biblical or archeological... In doing a study of Babylon one finds God separating Himself from the system that Babylon represents and I believe it is specific- making precious metals an equality to God's food provision... because common sense will quickly tell you true value in life when hunger and survival come knocking! I'm not really sure where this argument is going. How does this point to money being evil? Sorry I haven't gotten to this sooner. Okay Steven I will study this further. So the passages your presenting are... Gen 11:28 28 And Haran {Lot's father and Abram's brother} died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans. Genesis 11:10-31 Shem’s Descendants 10 This is the genealogy of Shem: Shem was one hundred years old, and begot Arphaxad two years after the flood. 11 After he begot Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. 12 Arphaxad lived thirty-five years, and begot Salah. 13 After he begot Salah, Arphaxad lived four hundred and three years, and begot sons and daughters. 14 Salah lived thirty years, and begot Eber. 15 After he begot Eber, Salah lived four hundred and three years, and begot sons and daughters. 16 Eber lived thirty-four years, and begot Peleg. 17 After he begot Peleg, Eber lived four hundred and thirty years, and begot sons and daughters. 18 Peleg lived thirty years, and begot Reu. 19 After he begot Reu, Peleg lived two hundred and nine years, and begot sons and daughters. 20 Reu lived thirty-two years, and begot Serug. 21 After he begot Serug, Reu lived two hundred and seven years, and begot sons and daughters. 22 Serug lived thirty years, and begot Nahor. 23 After he begot Nahor, Serug lived two hundred years, and begot sons and daughters. 24 Nahor lived twenty-nine years, and begot Terah. 25 After he begot Terah, Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years, and begot sons and daughters. 26 Now Terah lived seventy years, and begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Terah’s Descendants 27 This is the genealogy of Terah: Terah begot Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Haran begot Lot. 28 And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans. 29 Then Abram and Nahor took wives: the name of Abram’s wife was Sarai, and the name of Nahor’s wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran the father of Milcah and the father of Iscah. 30 But Sarai was barren; she had no child. 31 And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there. 32 So the days of Terah were two hundred and five years, and Terah died in Haran. It seems that in context this passage does point to Abram (Abraham) being from Ur. Abraham was a descendent of Shem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 The first we see of the precious metals as being a system for barter Gen 13:2 . Now it is not listed as from Egyptian gifting Gen 12:16. Therefore we must retrace the origin of Abram to see where the idea came from... By this map we see UR Abrams first mention Gen 11:28... also looking at the map we see what is called the fertile crescent which runs along the rivers up around near Haran and down into Caanan into Egypt. A long and historic trade route of Babylon and Egypt. Abram a descendant of Shem Noah's son and no more indicators from preflood Biblical or archeological... In doing a study of Babylon one finds God separating Himself from the system that Babylon represents and I believe it is specific- making precious metals an equality to God's food provision... because common sense will quickly tell you true value in life when hunger and survival come knocking! Okay Steven I will study this further. So the passages your presenting are... Gen 12:16 16 He {Pharaoh of Egypt) treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels. In context... Gen. 12:10-20 Abram in Egypt 10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to dwell there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, “Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance. 12 Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, ‘This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I[c] may live because of you.” 14 So it was, when Abram came into Egypt, that the Egyptians saw the woman, that she was very beautiful. 15 The princes of Pharaoh also saw her and commended her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken to Pharaoh’s house. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels. 17 But the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, ‘She is my sister’? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way.” 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had. It is interesting that this passage shows how Abram lied and yet God used this instance to greatly increase Abram's wealth. Gold is not mentioned so a form of currency or bartering should already have been in place. Okay Steven I will study this further. So the passages your presenting are... Gen 13:2 2 Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. In context... Gen. 13:1-4 1 Then Abram went up from Egypt, he and his wife and all that he had, and Lot with him, to the South.2 Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. 3 And he went on his journey from the South as far as Bethel, to the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Ai, 4 to the place of the altar which he had made there at first. And there Abram called on the name of the Lord. I agree from this passage we can see that gold and silver were used as commodity for trade. They were a symbol of status and of significant value. So how does this point to money being evil? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,193 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,469 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Gen 12:16 16 He {Pharaoh of Egypt) treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels. In context... Gen. 12:10-20 Abram in Egypt 10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to dwell there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, “Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance. 12 Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, ‘This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I[c] may live because of you.” 14 So it was, when Abram came into Egypt, that the Egyptians saw the woman, that she was very beautiful. 15 The princes of Pharaoh also saw her and commended her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken to Pharaoh’s house. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels. 17 But the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, ‘She is my sister’? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way.” 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had. Gold is not mentioned so a form of currency or bartering should already have been in place. This is assumption from reason and not supported here in Scripture... Gen 13:2 2 Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. In context... Gen. 13:1-4 1 Then Abram went up from Egypt, he and his wife and all that he had, and Lot with him, to the South.2 Abram was very rich in livestock, in silver, and in gold. 3 And he went on his journey from the South as far as Bethel, to the place where his tent had been at the beginning, between Bethel and Ai, 4 to the place of the altar which he had made there at first. And there Abram called on the name of the Lord. I agree from this passage we can see that gold and silver were used as commodity for trade. They were a symbol of status and of significant value. So how does this point to money being evil? God bless, GE Remember we are merely forming from Scripture the origins of precious metals in a monetary system... where did the idea spawn from or who was the originator of concept... I purpose from the Scripture it's origins are from Babel/Babylon. As Scripture denotes Egypt was animal reward yet Abram also had gold and silver as idea of value system... therefore the idea must have come from where He was from and not in Egypt itself... leaving Haran or Ur ... but the Tower of Babel was indicator of central idea and work and God separated by language barriors... Hence Babylon system is indicated as source by Scripture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 Gen 12:16 16 He {Pharaoh of Egypt) treated Abram well for her sake. He had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female servants, female donkeys, and camels. Gold is not mentioned so a form of currency or bartering should already have been in place. This is assumption from reason and not supported here in Scripture... I agree it is an assumption people bartered/traded... So if there was not a way to barter/trade how do you propose things were run? Remember we are merely forming from Scripture the origins of precious metals in a monetary system... where did the idea spawn from or who was the originator of concept... I purpose from the Scripture it's origins are from Babel/Babylon. As Scripture denotes Egypt was animal reward yet Abram also had gold and silver as idea of value system... therefore the idea must have come from where he was from and not in Egypt itself... leaving Haran or Ur ... but the Tower of Babel was indicator of central idea and work and God separated by language barriors... Hence Babylon system is indicated as source by Scripture... Historically speaking Egyptians were some of the first to mine copper, gold, and silver. See: http://www.reshafim....pics/mining.htm So I'm not sure if your assertion is valid that the gold/silver Abram had was from his home at Ur. Regarding Babel/Babylon... Sorry now it's my turn. I believe this is not supported by Scripture in bold... There is no mention in Genesis 11 in the account of the Tower of Babel of precious metals. Gen. 11:1-9 The Tower of Babel 11 Now the whole earth had one language and one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar, and they dwelt there. 3 Then they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. 4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.” 5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. 7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. Or perhaps you're referring to a different passage? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 Sorry if this is repeating another post, but I am not going to read 8 pages to see. Money is a means we use to measure the worth of our time and talents, the value of something we have, or the value of something we want to purchase. Money is no more that a tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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