Looking for answers! When Does This Even Happen?

[Eccl12v13]

I have heard that some believe that Jesus 2nd return happens before the tribulation period. And that some will be gathered and not have to go through this terrible time. I am asking for those that believe this to provide scriptures that state this claim.

I have been provided statements of what many believe...but am yet waiting for actual scriptures that state, "There will be some that will be gathered BEFORE the great tribulation period!" Then there are some that claim a gathering happens AFTER the trib period. Could there be TWO gatherings! Which is correct! WHO is correct?

I am putting together a lesson on the topic...but to be as accurate as possible I would like to know what are the scriptures people believe supports their claim that the church, elect, believers or whom ever will not be here for the tribulation period. Once these scriptures are provided let's go through them and search God's word for knowledge, understanding and common sense and ensure ALL of our doctrine and what we believe comes from the word of God and not man!

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

For as the scriptures above says...God's words ARE to be used for correction and instruction!

.

[Isaiah 6:8]

First of all, that's a can of worms question, and many opinions on many sides of the fence. Try checking out this forum, which I am moving this thread to as its better covered there.

http://www.worthychristianforums.com/index.php?/forum/10-eschatology/

[joi]

There was a time that I argued very strongly for the per-tribulation exit resurrection, but no more.

More recently I have come to realize the Word of God is always true, and just because I believe something does not make it true.

Now I go with this;

Matthew 24:36

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

[glf]

Since you asked for the before the tribulation and after the tribulation raptures, I will share mine. I used to be like you a pre-tribber rapture mostly because the Lord shut the door to Noah's ark after they had all entered before sending the flood. So that Noah and his family was delivered from the judgment of the world at that time before is came. Just as Lot and his family was delivered from Sodom and Gomorrah before that judgment began. But as i spent time in the Lord's word, I have slowly changed that opinion to a rapture that occurs just before the middle of the 7 years of the great tribulation because:

1Pet 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

2Thes 2:7NAS "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."

Mt 16:18,19 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Lk 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Mt 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

Mt18:19 "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven."

Jesus gave the Church authority over all the power of the enemy so that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. We see the anti-Christ reveals himself at the abomination of desolation which occurs in the middle of the Tribulation and that he will show signs and wonders that if it were possible would deceive even the elect. for the evil one to reveal his anti-christ while the Church is still upon the Earth, will be to subject himself to their prayer of faith and their promise of having authority over all the power of the enemy. His working will be to no avail if done before the Church is caught up in the air with those who have gone before us in Christ.

Or take the spiritual condition of the average believer of today. We have whole groups of people flocking after one slain-in-Spirit, feel good service after another. Not to say that they are wrong of off or anything, but I mention this to show that if many of the immature believers of the Church today see signs and and wonders, they will be deceived, in my opinion anyway. But if they are gone in the rapture, then it will be impossible for them to be deceived since they are gone by the time the anti-christ reveals himself and performs his deceitful signs and wonders.

So Peter tells us that judgment starts with the house of the Lord and that is the Church now-a-days. In fact, we see a burning mountain taking out a third of the world's population and a third of the world's shipping and a third of the rivers of the world will be polluted from this event. But the King of the North will be destroyed when that attack Israel and then the King of the South will meet the same fate in their turn and at the end of the great tribulation, the kings of the East and West meet for battle just as the Lord Jesus returns in his 2nd coming. My point is that when the burning mountain hits the earth it will not be taking out the various kings of the Earth. For the King of the North, Gog and Magog, is the USSR of today and the King of the South will be the North Africa nations and of course China has had a standing army for quite some time and Rev tells us that the king of the East will have such an army. The King of the West will be the anti-christ's 10 nation dominion and will have to survive the burning mountain's event to meet the other Kings of the Earth in battle in their turn. So my point here is that North and South America will have to provide for most of the one third of the world's population to be destroyed and one third of its rivers to be polluted and one third of the world's ships to be destroyed. Even though I consider the Church to be immature is these current times, it is still the US that provides the world with the majority of its missionaries and still provides the monies to pay for their working. It would be a good idea for those who want to survive to the rapture leave the southern US and to avoid any coastal cities from around the world too as the tsunami from this event will be unreal. The cities of the northern US will run out of food and it will be like the lost, who we've let down by being too busy living the good life to serve them by sacrificing our time and resources to do the things that are needful to minister the Spirit to our fellows in the US; will turn into thinking zombies hunting in packs for someone to eat as they slowly starve to death after the collapse of our agricultural industry in the south. I also suspect that the various artesian wells across the northern US will become battle zones of the starving. I speculate that the time from the burning mountain to the middle of the tribulation and the rapture to not be more than two years or two and a half years apart at the most.

Lk 21:24: "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Lk 21:33 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

Here we see that the Jews will return to Jerusalem when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. That occurred in 1967 and in Lk 21: 25-32 we see those things which must occur before Jesus returns in his 2nd Coming. So one must ask, "how long is a generation?" It can't be 40 years because we have past that amount of time since 1967. Or take the forty years in the wilderness by the jews who left Egypt. That generation fell in the wilderness, the Lord being weary of their behavior, but I wonder, did all who were alive when the left Egypt die or did those who were older than the age of accountability which for the Jews has been 13 years. If we add 13 years to the forty to get a generation we see the 2nd Coming between now and 2020 or if a generation is the 70 or 80 years given for mankind's lifespan since the flood; the 2nd coming would be by 2037 to 2047 at the latest, if not before. In fact, as far as I can tell, every prophecy that is required to be fulfilled before the start of the 7 years of great tribulation has already been fulfilled. For the middle of the tribulation, we need for the temple in Jerusalem to be rebuilt by Israel and Europe to become the anti-christ's domain with the killing of three of the leaders of the ten nation conglomerate.

Mt 24 is like a map of events:

24:1,2 Jesus prophecies that the temple will be destroyed

24:3 disciples ask about the end times and of the sign of his coming

24:4,5 Jesus says do not be deceived as many will come saying I am christ

24:6 wars and rumors of wars but the end is not yet

24:7 nation against nation with famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places

24:8 these are the beginning of sorrows

24:9,10 Nations will hate for Jesus name's sake, delivered up, killed, betrayed, and hated

24:11 false prophets shall rise and deceive many

24:12 lawless will abound because the love of many will wax cold

24:13 those that endue to the end shall be saved

24:14 gospel preached in all the world as a witness to the Nations and then the end shall come

24:15-20 has instructions for those who are living in Judaea at the middle of the tribulation after the abomination of desolation

24:21 then comes great tribulation such as the world has never and will never know again

24:22 the days are shortened for the elect's sake

24:23 believe it not when they say, here is Christ

24:24 signs and wonders by false christs and prophets that if possible would deceive the elect

24:25,26 more about not believing that Christ has come when they say he has

24:27,28 as lightning shines from east to west so shall the coming of the Son of man be

24:29 right after the tribulation of those days, the sun is darkened, moon has no light, stars fall and heaven shaken

24:30 then appears the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, tribes of Earth mourn, coming in clouds of heaven with power and great glory

24:31 Angels sent with sound of great trumpet and gather elect from four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

24:32-34 when you see these things know that it is near and this generation will not pass away until these things are fulfilled

24:35 heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away

24:36 of that day knows no man, nor angels, just the Father

24:37-39 just like the days of Noah, they knew not what day it came, so also the coming of the Son of man

24:40,41 two in field with one taken and the other left, two women grinding with one taken, man and wife asleep with one taken

24:42-44 watch therefore because you know not at what hour your Lord comes; for he comes at an hour ye think not

24:45-7 the faithful servant will be made ruler over all the goods with the goodman of the house comes

24:48-51 the evil servant will be cut asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrites

The end times are some of the most obscured times of the bible where when Jesus was still living on the Earth, he said that even he did'nt know the time of his return, but only his Father in heaven. In Mt 24 we see what looks like a jumbled puzzle of information. for example:

False Christ(s) and false prophets

Mt 24:4,5 we see that there will be false christs

Mt 24:11 tells us there will be false prophets

Mt 24:23 believe it not when they say Christ is here

Mt 24:24 signs and wonders by false christs and false prophets that if possible would deceive the elect

Mt 24:25,26 do not believe it when its said that Christ is here or there

Then the Tribulation

Mt 24:21 then comes Great Tribulation such as the world has nver known (after the abomination of desolation)

Mt 24:29 after the tribulation of those days the sun is darkened and moon has no light...

Taken

Mt 24:31 angels come with great sound of trumpet and gather the elect

Mt 24:40-41 two there with one taken and the other left

Time is near

Mt 24:14 gospel preached to all the nations then shall the end come

Mt24:33 when ye see these things, know that it is near even at the door

So, sadly, I find it impossible to use Mt 24 to prove a mid, pre, or post tribulation rapture as this passage seems to repeat itself, jumbling the events just enough to remain obscured untill its actually happening, which btw, Rev also seems to do, to me, in its descriptions of these events.

Edited October 28, 2011 by glf

[Massorite]

I have heard that some believe that Jesus 2nd return happens before the tribulation period. And that some will be gathered and not have to go through this terrible time. I am asking for those that believe this to provide scriptures that state this claim.

I have been provided statements of what many believe...but am yet waiting for actual scriptures that state, "There will be some that will be gathered BEFORE the great tribulation period!" Then there are some that claim a gathering happens AFTER the trib period. Could there be TWO gatherings! Which is correct! WHO is correct?

I am putting together a lesson on the topic...but to be as accurate as possible I would like to know what are the scriptures people believe supports their claim that the church, elect, believers or whom ever will not be here for the tribulation period. Once these scriptures are provided let's go through them and search God's word for knowledge, understanding and common sense and ensure ALL of our doctrine and what we believe comes from the word of God and not man!

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

For as the scriptures above says...God's words ARE to be used for correction and instruction!

.

The reason you have not recieved any scripture is because there are non that re-enforce the "gathering before great tribulation". There is no such scripture that even says that there will be seven years of tribulation

But I can show scriture that says that there will be great tribulation before Jesus is seen in the clouds/glory of God. From the mouth of Jesus. Matthew 24:29 "

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect (we are the elect) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." This is some very clear scripture yet so many refuse to believe it. They would rather belive in a false teaching.

2 Thess. 2:3 " Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Again this is a very clear scripture yet again many refuse to believe. Can you imagine who surprised the un-believers will be when they find themselve in great tribulation and deciding what to do about the mark of the beast.

The next time Jesus returns after these verses will be at the end of the battle of Armageddon.

[j102]

I have heard that some believe that Jesus 2nd return happens before the tribulation period. And that some will be gathered and not have to go through this terrible time. I am asking for those that believe this to provide scriptures that state this claim.

I have been provided statements of what many believe...but am yet waiting for actual scriptures that state, "There will be some that will be gathered BEFORE the great tribulation period!" Then there are some that claim a gathering happens AFTER the trib period. Could there be TWO gatherings! Which is correct! WHO is correct?

I am putting together a lesson on the topic...but to be as accurate as possible I would like to know what are the scriptures people believe supports their claim that the church, elect, believers or whom ever will not be here for the tribulation period. Once these scriptures are provided let's go through them and search God's word for knowledge, understanding and common sense and ensure ALL of our doctrine and what we believe comes from the word of God and not man!

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

For as the scriptures above says...God's words ARE to be used for correction and instruction!

.

As For me i honestly dont see how, if one really studies the word in its context can get confused about the timing of the Lord's return and the tribulation.

in 1st and 2nd thessalonians paul clearly says by the word of the lord that christ will destroy the antichrist 1ST and THEN gather up his saints in the air to be with him forever. plain as day to me.

P.S. it usualy takes a theologin to muddy up what god clearly says in his word.

[tintiger78]

I will preface this post by stating that by no means am I an eschatological scholar and many things confuse me about prophecy. With that said, here is my belief.

Matt 24 and Mark 13 both speak of the rapture being something that is sudden and without warning.

Matt 24:42-44: “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Mark 13:33-37: Be on guard! Be alert! You do not know when that time will come. It’s like a man going away: He leaves his house and puts his servants in charge, each with his assigned task, and tells the one at the door to keep watch. “Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’”

Do these by any means finalize the debate that it will be a Pre-Trib event? Not by a long shot. But it is compeling enough for me to hold to me view of pre-trib. Though, i must say it should not be an issue that divides the church. It does not matter when Jesus comes, it only matter that HE IS COMING!

Seeking to understand that I may obey,

Tintiger