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Stumbling to repentance or to death Even while while under the OT Law, King David was able to obtain forgiveness after he repented of his adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband to cover it up. We also have the example of the brother in 1 Cor 5; who was to be shunned by the church, though they were not to regard him as an unbeliever, while he was living in a sin that wasn't even named among the gentiles of that day. Later, in 2 Cor 2, we see the church there was instructed to welcome him back into fellowship after he repented. The examples above show us that our faith in Jesus can overcome even the most heinous of ongoing sins. 2 Pet 3:9 kjv "For the Lord is not slack as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us ward, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance." We see that King David and the brother in 1 Cor 5 were both strong in faith and able to maintain their faith in the Lord Jesus, even while they were stumbling in un-repentance. Those that remain babes in Christ by neglecting the scriptures which lead to spiritual growth, remain weak in faith, sadly. See, 1 Pet 2:2 kjv "As newborn babes desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby." And, 2 Pet 1:3,4 kjv "According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." Like the mustard seed and the fruits of the Spirit, faith is to grow within each of us. We can see this in 2 Thes 1:3 kjv "We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth." For those who are not strong in their faith, we can see another result: First, are the single believers that are unable to control themselves because, "it is better to marry than to burn." The threat of burning can only be directed at those who do not have faith. Btw, this passage shows us that there is no "one and only" or "soul mate" meant for us, other than the Lord himself! For those who are weak in faith and who stumble into sin, the guilt that they feel may lead to a falling away in regards to their faith and then they too will burn. The difference between stumbling and falling away is that when we stumble, we get back up to continue our walk. Second, we see in Rom 14:15 kjv "But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died." There is no threat of destruction for those who remain steadfast in their faith unto the end. To continue, Rom 14:23 kjv "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Here we can see here that we can be damned if we eat in doubt, even though all foods are made pure by the word of God and by the prayer of faith, but because the one who esteems it to be unclean, then for that person, it is unclean. And in 1 Cor 8:7-13 we see that the brother who is weak may be emboldened to eat meat sacrificed to an idol, if he sees another believer with the knowledge that all foods are clean and that there is no god save the Lord, eat the sacrificed meat and then he may become embolden to also eat, but his conscience being weak is defiled as per 1 Cor 8:7 and then in verse 11 we see that the weak brother may perish because of another believer's knowledge. The perishing mentioned here has to refer to a loss of faith and therefore salvation. In Eph 2:8,9 kjv "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works least any man should boast." And in 1 Jn 5:4 kjv "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." So salvation is by faith and not by works. For those whose guilt or the sorrow of the world takes them from the Lord in their own minds and who neglect the scriptures and who then either let their faith wither and die or who give themselves to another belief, will become reprobate without hope in the world, though they probably will not even realize it. We can see this in Rom 1:28 kjv "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things that are not convenient." Some other verses regarding the loosing of one's faith: 1 Tim 4:1,2 kjv "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their consciences seared with a hot iron." And in Heb 3:12 kjv "Take heed, brethren, least there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." And again in Heb 6:4-6 kjv "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the power of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to a open shame." And once more in 2 Pet 2:20,21 kjv "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they had known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." And finally, here is an amazing promise for those who sin not unto death in 1 Jn 5:16,17 kjv "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and He shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." In Eph 2:8,9 we see that salvation is not by works, but James tells us in James 2:17 that faith without works is dead. How can both of these verses be correct? The answer to that question is found in 1 Jn 3:19-23 kjv "And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then we have confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe upon the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." Obedience to the above holy commandment is the works that James is speaking about that will prove one's faith and it is the faith that is mentioned in Eph 2:8,9. This same commandment is what Peter is referring to in 2 Pet 2:20,21 which can be seen in the paragraph above this one. Now to the unforgivable sin, which like the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to Adam and Eve; in that as long as we abstain from it, we will be choosing the Lord. This is seen in Mt 12:32 kjv, where Jesus said, "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him, but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." The world to come can only be referring to the new Heaven and the new Earth mentioned in Rev 21:1. When we're out of fellowship with the Lord and neglect the scriptures, the Holy Spirit becomes grieved and the anointing that we have obtained through obedience, ebbs. The Lord stops writing his commandments upon the table of our hearts and minds since we are not putting his word into our minds and seems to get further and further away. The heart is increasingly hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and grows more and more insensitive to the Lord's still small voice. Until the flame of faith goes out. Another promise from God's word for those who are in this situation is found in James 5:19,20 kjv "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." ty... Greg

Eternal life... was given to us when we first believed and is given to us now and will be given to us on that day. Present tense: 1 Jn 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." Past tense: Jesus said, Jn 6:34 "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." 1 Jn 5:11 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." Future tense: Mk 10:30 "But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life." Jude 1:21 "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

Titus 1:15,16 "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

No, you mean Eternal Security. OSAS doesn't exist. It is a made up doctrine by people who don't understand Eternal Security. At any rate, you are wrong. Many great evangelists and missionaries hail from denominations that believe in eternal security. Eric Liddell, Jim Elliott, Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, Billy Graham and others have won many to the Lord and in some cases gave their lives to that end. Assurance does not lead to complacency. It leads to boldness and action. How can you reach others with the Gospel if you don't even know if you are saved from one day to the next? No one who lives in constant fear of losing their salvation makes any kind of positive impact. You have nothing to offer anyone if you can't even be sure if you are saved? Why would anyone want to live in that fear? Why would they want to be like you, if you can't even demonstrate that you are saved? You are not offering anything that anyone would want. That is not true. I don't know where you are getting that from, but there will no forbidden fruit in the New Jerusalem. Hey! Shiloh357... Prasie the Lord in Jesus' name, our God and King! Lets do a passage by passage dialogue then and see what happens... : ) I'll start with the first verse listed. Mt 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." And, just like it; Mk 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Lets look at these two passags this way. 1Jn3:14NAS "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death." And, 1Jn 4:7,8 "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 Cor 13:5NAS Love..."does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered." Love does not take into accout a wrong suffered, so we see that if we love others, we are fulfilling the royal law of Christ. Our ability to forgive grows as our love grows as we abide in the vine just as the other fruits of the Spirit do. So that the Spirit that indwells us is working on our hearts to make our love for others to grow, just as Jesus, our example, loves us and gave himself for us, the just for the unjust. The forbidden fruit that I was speaking of is found in; Mt 12:30-32 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." This is an unforgiveable sin, so that even in the age to come, it will not be forgiven, ever. This is the forbidden fruit that will be possible to partake of even in New Jerusalem and the age to come. As long as we refrain from it, we will be choosing the Lord! There will be no more faith or hope in this age since we have entered into our redemption and have obtained the promises and are now joined with the Lord being no longer absent while in our mortal bodies. I can't imagine anyone actually doing such a thing in a time when we will know even as we are known and are made to be one with the Lord just as Jesus is one with the Father, but that doesn't mean that its not possible, sadly. Greg btw... doctrine is just a word to me that describes one's beliefs, wither they are correct or incorrect. Since we know in part and see the truth through a glass darkly, each of us have incorrect beliefs, sadly. And also sadly, error feels exactly the same as the truth does. but if we abide in the vine our doctrinal accuracy will grow. My proof of this statement; Is 28:9,10 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. And again in 2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" The Lord uses scripture to teach us knowledge and doctrine. If we are learning more knowledge and doctrine, then we should be changing our beliefs as we grow in the knowledge of the truth that is being illuminated by the Spirit, more and more.

I used to believe in osas near as much as I did in Jesus, but this is what I found in the scriptures. I spent several days in tears before the Lord regarding this doctrine and I know how hard it is to let go... Faith is a gift and since it is a gift it is not by works but by grace. Faith produces behavior that is appropriate to repentance in the one who has it, to prove that faith, whereas belief does not lead to anything in the one who has it. Even if one is doing a worse sin than most, like the brother in 1 Cor 5, who was still counted as being a believer and he repented later and was welcomed back into fellowship of that congregation. The works that are appropriate to repentance is faith in Jesus and loving others, but also both faith and love are fruits of the Spirit and grow as we abide in the vine. Many are called but few are chosen. It is those who answer the call of the Lord by calling on him, who are chosen. Mt 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Mk 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Heb 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." 2Pet 2:20-23 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Mt 12:30-32 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." Mt 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved." Mk 9:43-48 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Mk 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Jn 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." Rom 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Rom 11:20-22 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." 1Cor 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Rom 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 2Cor 12:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates." Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." Gal 6:9 "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap if we faint not." 1 Thes 3:5 "For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain." 1 Tim 1:19 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." 1 Tim4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils." 1Tim 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." 2 Pet 2:20,21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2 Pet3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." 1Jn 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." 1 Jn 5:16,17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." ****** Salvation is by faith in the Lord and the one who has it, will produce works meet to repentance, some thirty-fold, some sixty-fold and some a hundred-fold. In 1 Cor 5, we see the man who was with his father's wife. He was to be shunned, but not to be counted as an unbeliever. He repented later in 2 Cor and was welcomed back into fellowship. Or take the example in 1Cor 8:8-13, where one who has a weak conscience saw another eating meat sacrificed to an idol. We know that food is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer. But he one's whose faith is weak and who doesn't have this knowledge is embolden to eat when he sees another brother eating and his conscience being weak can cause that one to feel guilty before the Lord and therefore to stumble and even fall as a result in the one for whom Christ died. The difference between stumbling and falling is that when we stumble, we get up. Sadly, we all stumble in many ways and when we sin or when we think we sin, our consciences can separate us from the Lord's presence in our own minds because of that guilt. It would be better to believe in OSAS than to believe; saved today, lost tomorrow, and then saved again on the next day. Sadly, the doctrine of osas leads to a lack of concern for our own safety and for others by providing a sense of false security and complacency. Even in New Jerusalem, there will be a forbidden fruit that if we do not partake, we are choosing the Lord because without a choice we will be there by compulsion and the Lord wants us to want him. The forbidden fruit is the sin that is neither forgiven in this life nor in the life to come, which I do not lile to even mention. Now-a-days many trust in the religion of Christianity just as the Arab person does for Islam. There is no relationship for that one because there is no Allah. So too, for the one who just believes in Christianity without that connection to the Lord by faith. Faith is that form of believing that is only based upon the Lord's word and will always produce works or a growing moral behavior appropriate to repentance. Its just that we grow at different rates from one another and so its hard to see that change in some of the more slowly growing believers who may be neglecting the scriptures. That's why we are not to judge if another who professes Jesus is saved or not because we cannot see into their heart. We can determine by the fruits of the Spirit in their lives wither they are worthy for fellowship or if they are bad company (1Tim 1:5NAS). The works of faith in the believer is to believe on Jesus and to love others with an active concern. See 1Jn3:19-23; Jn 15:12; Gal 5:6; 1 Thes4:9; Jn 13:34,35; Jam2:8; 1Jn 2:8; 1Jn 3:14; 1 Jn 4:7,8; 1Jn 4:11,12; 2Jn1:5 and Mt 5:43,44,46. Of course, the standard for Christian love is revealed in 1Cor13. But love grows as does any of the fruits of the Spirit by abiding in the vine or by filling our minds with the Lord's word that lives and abides forever, even in New Jerusalem. Loving (agape) others fulfills the law Rom13:8,10. Faith can be weak or strong depending on who has it. Rom 14:1 "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." And, Rom 4:19 "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;"

Who else is MY salvation up to other than me? Why did Jesus come? To shed His blood so that we could again have the right to eternal life. Who did Jesus die for? EVERYBODY! But will EVERYBODY be saved? NO! Even though we have Jesus saying this; "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." And how was the whole world saved? By allowing everyone the CHANCE to eternal life! If Jesus came to save.....and to guarantee salvation for all......if that was His goal, then He failed! Jesus came so that we would not have to shed our OWN blood for the remission of sins. Now that He has done that do we continue in SIN? NO! Rom.6 [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? And what is the ONLY action that will cause a name to be blotted out of God's books? SIN! And WHO determines whether or not I sin? ME! Now this TOO may not be the answer you are looking for....but it's my answer to your question. . . Rom 14:22 "Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Rom 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." 1Tim1:19 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." for Exp: Rom14:14,15 "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Does this mean that only those things that bother me are wrong or are a sin. NO! Our consciences are continually being renewed by the word of the Lord, so that as we grow closer to him in holiness, the things that we once delighted in become points of conviction. Evenso, the Lord's word is the absolute standard for good or bad behavior and then our consciences.

Yes we can know... 1 Jn5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

These are those who have overcome... Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Mk 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Heb 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Actually, I addressed the issue head-on. The problem is that you don't like the answer because to pulls the rug out from under the notion that a genuine believer can never be secure. I can only speak for myself in that regard. I know I am saved. I made a decision to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I have a "know-so salvation." I don't have to wonder if my name is still up there or not. I have passed from judgment to life and I am saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. I have been to the Judge and that old account has been setteled a long time ago. So for my part, my name is in the Lamb's Book of Life and it will be there never to be removed. God is faithful to save to the uttermost those that trust in Him. How secure is for everyone else? Well, that is something they have to settle with the Lord. Each person has to come to that hour of decision where they come to a realization of their sin and repent of it and truly turn to Christ for salvation. As I said the Christian who has an authentic profession of faith has nothing to fear about eternity. Their name is in the Lamb's Book of Life and no one gets blotted out of that book. Rev22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

They are one in the same! First let's find who it will be that will judge all of mankind, thus being the only one blotting out names from His book! Let's prove this; Gen.18 [25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? And who will it be that judges mankind? John 5 [22] For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Now who was it that Moses spoke with concerning blotting out His name from the book? The ONLY one that will be blotting names out of His book; Jesus Christ! Let's read... Rev.3 [5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Now let's read who will not be getting into the knigdom based on what is in the book; Rev.20 [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Now let's read who will not be getting into the kingdom based upon what is written in the Lamb's book of life; Rev.21 [27] And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. The book of life and the Lamb's book of life are one in the same. Jesus is the ONLY one that will judge mankind! Jesus is the ONLY that will be blotting names out of books! If your name is not in the book of Life/the Lamb's book of life you will NOT enter into God's kingdom, meaning you will NOT receive God's promise of eternal life! . Rev 22:19 "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Rom 16:7 "Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me." Act 14: "Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out." Matthais is already mentioned...

Zeph 3:17 "The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing." Ps 113:3 "From the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, the Lord's name is to be praised." Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

1Jn 5:16-18NAS "If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and He will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

How do we feed on the bread of life? What must we do?

Agape love does more than fulfill the Law and the prophets, it even speaks to the intent of our heart and makes our concern for others active. It is Jesus' kind of love which is seen in both his obedience to the letter of the OT Law and in his compassion for others that continued working even after the requirement to letter of the law had been fulfilled. But the point I'm trying to emphasize here is that in the New Covenant the Lord uses both the OT and the NT scriptures to write his commandments onto the table of our hearts which transforms us on the inside so that we perceive sin more and more as Jesus does in our consciences. This inner process of moral transformation by the ministry of the word and the Spirit is what sets the growing or stumbling believer free from the addictive behaviors that we all have when we come to Christ or have taken on when we stumble. The OT law led to death for disobedience, but now those same scriptures bring us life (forever) and peace (for now) by establishing love from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and a sincere faith in each one of us who are being trained by it.

Mt5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." **Heaven and Earth are still here and Jesus has not yet been seated on King David's throne, so not one little bit has passed from the law.** Mt5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." **Speaks for itself** Gal3:23-25NAS "But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." **Here we see that Paul is speaking to gentile believers and is telling them that "we" were kept in custody under the law and that "we" are no longer under a tutor, the law. So the law is in effect upon all those who have not come to Christ. It is the standard by which the Lord will judge the lost, beginning with the two greatest commandments that apply even to us as New Testament believers. The life that Jesus lived was obedient to the Spirit of the law and therefore met every outward requirement of the OT law. That righteous life that was lived in obedience to the law is imputed to us who have faith and since we have died with Christ, we too are dead to the law to serve the Lord after the Spirit.** Gal3:27-29 NAS "For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise." **When we come to Jesus, we join with the Jewish believers who accepted him and are grafted into the cultivated olive tree where there is one body, one faith, one baptism, but those who reject the Lord Jesus are under the curse because they have sinned along with the Jews who have not accepted their Messiah.** Gal2:19NAS "For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God." **How could I die to the law if I was not under the law.** Rom 3:19KJV "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God." **here we see that the law speaks to those who are under the law and that every mouth, not just jewish mouths, that all the world may be guilty before God.** Rom 7:4-6KJV "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." **How can one become dead to the law, if they were never under the law in the first place? By telling us that we can be married to another, lets us know that we were married to the law before being crucified with Christ. When we were in the flesh the working of sin which was by the law, did work in our bodies to bring forth death. Now, we are delivered from the law by being dead wherein we were held; so that we can serve the Lord in the newness of the Spirit and not the oldness of the letter. Can't be oldness of the letter if the Roman gentiles, who are being addressed by this letter, were not under the law themselves before they came to Christ. And since it applied to them, it applies to us today.** Rom2:6-15 "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" **It isn't the hearers of the law who will be justified before the Lord, it is the doers of the law that shall be justified, Jew and gentile. Here we see that even the gentiles who are without the law in the world can show the work of the law written in their hearts, doing by nature the things contained in the law. So wither we have the written law available to us or not, we are all required to be doers of the law, to the Jew first and then the gentile. This is the standard that we are all judged by before faith. For those who do have the written law available to them, it points them to Christ. But once Christ comes, we are no longer required to be doers of the law to be justified before the Lord. We are now justified by faith in Jesus, whose perfect life under the law is imputed to us, fulfilling every single requirement of the law in each one of us. Then we die to the law with Jesus and are raised in the newness of the Spirit to walk after the Spirit and no longer after the oldness of the letter of the law. OT law = the law of sin and death = the letter of the law = Old Covenant or Testament = law of Moses = law and the prophets** Rom 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." **The statement that the law ended at the cross is true for the one who is crucified with Christ. Humanity is required to be doers of the law to be justified before the Lord. Again, it is the standard that those who are without faith will be judged by on that day. Of course, that is the same standard that only Jesus fulfilled, who was a doer of the law in every single instant of his life. In both the OT and the NT times, "the just shall life by faith." And, "blessed is the man to whose sins are forgiven and whose God is the Lord." We then are under obligation to live according to the Spirit. The Holy Spirit leads us to obey the law of the Spirit, which is the same commandments and promises of the OT law, but now its the intent of the heart and not by the outward letter. The OT law says, do not commit adultery, but the law of the Spirit says, do not look on another with lust or you have committed adultery in your heart. The OT faithful studied the law to do according to all that is written therein or he will die. The difference in the NT is that those same scriptures and commandments that led them to death because of disobedience, now by the ministry of the Holy Spirit, transforms us by the renewing of our minds and leads us to life and peace. The Holy Spirit illuminates the word of God that we put into our minds, thus fulfilling the New Covenant promise of writing the Lord's commandments into our hearts and minds. This leads to our predestinated growth into Christ's moral image as we perceive sin in our hearts more and more as the Lord does and the Holy Spirit will even use our own guilt or godly sorrow that leads to a repentance not to be repented of, to set us free. The Lord's power is perfected in weakness. If we do sin, we have an advocate before the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, our New Covenant High Priest whose blood paid our debt in full and who makes intercession on our behalf before the Father; who will forgive us our sin, cleanse us from all unrighteousness and will remember our sin no more.** **A clear conscience and the sleep of the innocent is available to even the worst of us when we turn to Jesus and follow the Spirit into growth. Unlike salvation which is the Lord's free gift, growth has to be worked for or earned. If one has faith, that one will produce works appropriate to repentance and grow thirty fold, or sisty fold, or a hundred fold. This growth is a component of our relationship with the Lord. Jesus said, "he that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he is is that loves me and the Father will love him and I will love him and manifest myself to him." The Lord is found in his word. Ps 138:2 "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." or 2Pet 1:3,4 "seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust" The above verse in Peter is a New Covenant power promise. As far as the OT promises are concerned, 2Cor 1:20 "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."** 1Jn3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." **Jesus come quickly!** I hope you enjoy... Greg Praise the Lord in Jesus' name, our God and King!

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you." The Kingdom is found with the King and the Lord is found in his word. 2Pet1:3,4 "seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." Peace and joy are components of our relationship with the Lord. As with any relationship, it is two way. The Lord speaks to us when we put his word into our minds, here a little and there a little, by the ministry of the Holy Spirit who loves us and is joined with us forever in our spirits. The Lord listens to us when we call upon him. There is no scripture talking about being prayer warriors. That is becaue we are all to pray without ceasing. To have that sense of the Lord's presence in our thoughts as we share with him the things of the moment. "From the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, the Lord's name is to be praised!" "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known unto God and the peace that passes all understanding will keep your heart and mind in Christ Jesus." Obedience is also a compoment of having peace. 1Jn3:20-22 "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight." Besides peace, one might say that a clear conscience empowers full power faith. Greg

Hey! Waiting2BwithHim We come to the Lord as we are. If we try to clean ourselves up first, then we will never turn to the Lord because we are enslaved by those sins which we have given ourselvs to. Jn 8:34 "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." Heb 3:13 "But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" The Lord calls us to himself as we are. We respond and come to him in faith and repentance. The Lord uses his word to cleanse us, sanctify us, give us faith and increase our faith, to teach us the truth and to reveal himself to us. All this is done by the ministry of the Holy Spirit who indwells us. Each of us have sins that need to be dealt with by the Lord when we first come to him. Sadly, many of us take on new sins even after we come to Jesus for various reasons. Whatever the reason, the Holy Spirit uses the scripture that we put into our minds to transform us into the moral image of Jesus Christ and thus fulfilling the New Covenant promise to write his commandments in our hearts and minds. What happens is that the Holy Spirit illuminates the logos(word) that we put into our minds and makes it to be the rhema(spoken word) of Jesus to our hearts and minds. We learn of him just as we do anyone who we spend the time with. Our consciences are purified, here a little and there a little, and we perceive sin as the Lord himself does, more and more. The things that we once delighted in become points of conviction as the Lord begins to deal with us in that area. As you stay in the word and your conscience is purified more and more, the point of conviction will become a torment of guilt as you are changing on the inside. If you're stubborn at quitting, the Holy Spirit will use your own guilt as a tool to set you free. Say for example your sin is smoking which can be as addictive as heroin. You resist but then give in and it doesn't bother you as usual. But the Lord decides that its time to deal with this and as you smoke it starts to bother you somewhat. You stay in the word and even add memorization of those verses that stand out to you as you read during your daily devotions. The Lord will continue to transform you on the inside but you outward man doesn't know that you've been changed on the inside and the thing that you allow doesn't just bother you, now it give you a full blown flare up of guilt because your conscience is no longer the same old decaying moral indicator, its being renewed. So now that your guilty reaction is able to more than just bother you and you start more and more often saying no to the temptation in your mind. But, sadly, smoking is hard to stop as the temptation keeps returning again and again. Then you give in and smoke after having stopped for a time. You're not just guilty now, you're miserable and this time it takes more than just a day to get over it. The more you fill your mind with the Lord's word the faster and more intense this process will be. So that in the end, the knowledge of how tormented you will be will give you the power to say no because you not the same person on the inside. You're no longer being conformed to this world but you're being transformed by the renewing of your mind to prove the good, acceptable, and perfect will of God for this sin. Of course, once you have the victory over this area, the Lord will begin on another. Rejoice though because when we turn from those things the Lord rewards us with more and more of himself. Here are some power promises: Mt 10:10 "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." Jam 1:13-15 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." The start of being tempted is being drawn away from the Lord's presence in your mind. Then the thought of it entices you. As it is upon you mind, it works to break down your resolve. 2 Cor 10: "For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." In the above verse we see that we have powerful weapons that are mighty through God to the pulling down the strongholds of evil or the addictive behaviors in our lives. We do this by casting down our imaginations and by bringing every though into the obedience of Christ. Rom8:6NAS "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace," The battlefield is in our minds, with what we allow ourselves to think about. So fill your mind with the Lord's word, especially with memorization, and you will be set free and be free indeed. The Lord's desire is for us all to have a clear conscience and to walk in joy. 2Pet1:3,4 "seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." I hope this helps! These are some great power promises to memorize and then like Jesus you can quote the scripture that you have memorized beforehand to resist the evil one's attack. The Lord's word is more powerful that our sin, than the evil one, than the world. Its even more powerful than our own consciences, so that we can even forgive our own selves by the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the power of the Lord's word in our minds. The Lord bless you in Jesus' name. Holy Father, full of life and light, gather Waiting2BwithHim into your care and take charge of this situation to set em free. Lord, make your word to be the power of your might to the heart and mind of waiting2BwithHim. In the name of Jesus, forgive waiting2BwithHim of sin, give em life, and make yourself at home in Waiting2BwithHim's spirit. Send your angels to waiting2BwithHim and break any chains of darkness that may have been put there by the evil one and keep em safe from all harm. Lord set Waiting2BwithHim free from this sin and give em peace. Father, give Waiting2BwithHim a vision and take the eyes off of self and put them onto Jesus, lifted up in the power of his sacrifice of love for us all. Magnify your name in Waiting2BwithHim and use em to comfort others with the same comfort that you will be comforting Waiting2BwithIm with. In Jesus' name, Amen.

I could be wrong but I believe that Satan fell before the creation of man because the bible says in Gen. 1:2 "and darkness was on the face of the deep" In this verse according to the Strongs the word "darkness" represents wickedness and death and we all know who that is. Satan. And the word "deep" is speaking about water or oceans. Next in verse 2 the spirit of God moved "brooded or thought about what to do next" and in verse 3 it says "and God said let there be light". I like to ask people "How many times did God create light?" and most will say once. However the light that God created in verse 3 was created on the first day. yuk,yuk,yuk. It was the light of God that God created on the first day and the sun which sheds light onto the earth wasn't created until the forth day. Which means that Satan was already here on earth before man was created. Regarding light in the time of the beginning, I suspect that before these events the Lord was the light of the world before the evil one fell and therefore before sin was in the world of that time. It would have been like it will be in New Jerusalem, where the Lord is the light of the world and there will be no darkness or night. Just a thougth...

Since you asked for the before the tribulation and after the tribulation raptures, I will share mine. I used to be like you a pre-tribber rapture mostly because the Lord shut the door to Noah's ark after they had all entered before sending the flood. So that Noah and his family was delivered from the judgment of the world at that time before is came. Just as Lot and his family was delivered from Sodom and Gomorrah before that judgment began. But as i spent time in the Lord's word, I have slowly changed that opinion to a rapture that occurs just before the middle of the 7 years of the great tribulation because: 1Pet 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 2Thes 2:7NAS "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." Mt 16:18,19 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Lk 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." Mt 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Mt18:19 "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven." Jesus gave the Church authority over all the power of the enemy so that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. We see the anti-Christ reveals himself at the abomination of desolation which occurs in the middle of the Tribulation and that he will show signs and wonders that if it were possible would deceive even the elect. for the evil one to reveal his anti-christ while the Church is still upon the Earth, will be to subject himself to their prayer of faith and their promise of having authority over all the power of the enemy. His working will be to no avail if done before the Church is caught up in the air with those who have gone before us in Christ. Or take the spiritual condition of the average believer of today. We have whole groups of people flocking after one slain-in-Spirit, feel good service after another. Not to say that they are wrong of off or anything, but I mention this to show that if many of the immature believers of the Church today see signs and and wonders, they will be deceived, in my opinion anyway. But if they are gone in the rapture, then it will be impossible for them to be deceived since they are gone by the time the anti-christ reveals himself and performs his deceitful signs and wonders. So Peter tells us that judgment starts with the house of the Lord and that is the Church now-a-days. In fact, we see a burning mountain taking out a third of the world's population and a third of the world's shipping and a third of the rivers of the world will be polluted from this event. But the King of the North will be destroyed when that attack Israel and then the King of the South will meet the same fate in their turn and at the end of the great tribulation, the kings of the East and West meet for battle just as the Lord Jesus returns in his 2nd coming. My point is that when the burning mountain hits the earth it will not be taking out the various kings of the Earth. For the King of the North, Gog and Magog, is the USSR of today and the King of the South will be the North Africa nations and of course China has had a standing army for quite some time and Rev tells us that the king of the East will have such an army. The King of the West will be the anti-christ's 10 nation dominion and will have to survive the burning mountain's event to meet the other Kings of the Earth in battle in their turn. So my point here is that North and South America will have to provide for most of the one third of the world's population to be destroyed and one third of its rivers to be polluted and one third of the world's ships to be destroyed. Even though I consider the Church to be immature is these current times, it is still the US that provides the world with the majority of its missionaries and still provides the monies to pay for their working. It would be a good idea for those who want to survive to the rapture leave the southern US and to avoid any coastal cities from around the world too as the tsunami from this event will be unreal. The cities of the northern US will run out of food and it will be like the lost, who we've let down by being too busy living the good life to serve them by sacrificing our time and resources to do the things that are needful to minister the Spirit to our fellows in the US; will turn into thinking zombies hunting in packs for someone to eat as they slowly starve to death after the collapse of our agricultural industry in the south. I also suspect that the various artesian wells across the northern US will become battle zones of the starving. I speculate that the time from the burning mountain to the middle of the tribulation and the rapture to not be more than two years or two and a half years apart at the most. Lk 21:24: "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Lk 21:33 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." Here we see that the Jews will return to Jerusalem when the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. That occurred in 1967 and in Lk 21: 25-32 we see those things which must occur before Jesus returns in his 2nd Coming. So one must ask, "how long is a generation?" It can't be 40 years because we have past that amount of time since 1967. Or take the forty years in the wilderness by the jews who left Egypt. That generation fell in the wilderness, the Lord being weary of their behavior, but I wonder, did all who were alive when the left Egypt die or did those who were older than the age of accountability which for the Jews has been 13 years. If we add 13 years to the forty to get a generation we see the 2nd Coming between now and 2020 or if a generation is the 70 or 80 years given for mankind's lifespan since the flood; the 2nd coming would be by 2037 to 2047 at the latest, if not before. In fact, as far as I can tell, every prophecy that is required to be fulfilled before the start of the 7 years of great tribulation has already been fulfilled. For the middle of the tribulation, we need for the temple in Jerusalem to be rebuilt by Israel and Europe to become the anti-christ's domain with the killing of three of the leaders of the ten nation conglomerate. Mt 24 is like a map of events: 24:1,2 Jesus prophecies that the temple will be destroyed 24:3 disciples ask about the end times and of the sign of his coming 24:4,5 Jesus says do not be deceived as many will come saying I am christ 24:6 wars and rumors of wars but the end is not yet 24:7 nation against nation with famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places 24:8 these are the beginning of sorrows 24:9,10 Nations will hate for Jesus name's sake, delivered up, killed, betrayed, and hated 24:11 false prophets shall rise and deceive many 24:12 lawless will abound because the love of many will wax cold 24:13 those that endue to the end shall be saved 24:14 gospel preached in all the world as a witness to the Nations and then the end shall come 24:15-20 has instructions for those who are living in Judaea at the middle of the tribulation after the abomination of desolation 24:21 then comes great tribulation such as the world has never and will never know again 24:22 the days are shortened for the elect's sake 24:23 believe it not when they say, here is Christ 24:24 signs and wonders by false christs and prophets that if possible would deceive the elect 24:25,26 more about not believing that Christ has come when they say he has 24:27,28 as lightning shines from east to west so shall the coming of the Son of man be 24:29 right after the tribulation of those days, the sun is darkened, moon has no light, stars fall and heaven shaken 24:30 then appears the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, tribes of Earth mourn, coming in clouds of heaven with power and great glory 24:31 Angels sent with sound of great trumpet and gather elect from four winds, from one end of heaven to the other 24:32-34 when you see these things know that it is near and this generation will not pass away until these things are fulfilled 24:35 heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away 24:36 of that day knows no man, nor angels, just the Father 24:37-39 just like the days of Noah, they knew not what day it came, so also the coming of the Son of man 24:40,41 two in field with one taken and the other left, two women grinding with one taken, man and wife asleep with one taken 24:42-44 watch therefore because you know not at what hour your Lord comes; for he comes at an hour ye think not 24:45-7 the faithful servant will be made ruler over all the goods with the goodman of the house comes 24:48-51 the evil servant will be cut asunder and appoint his portion with the hypocrites The end times are some of the most obscured times of the bible where when Jesus was still living on the Earth, he said that even he did'nt know the time of his return, but only his Father in heaven. In Mt 24 we see what looks like a jumbled puzzle of information. for example: False Christ(s) and false prophets Mt 24:4,5 we see that there will be false christs Mt 24:11 tells us there will be false prophets Mt 24:23 believe it not when they say Christ is here Mt 24:24 signs and wonders by false christs and false prophets that if possible would deceive the elect Mt 24:25,26 do not believe it when its said that Christ is here or there Then the Tribulation Mt 24:21 then comes Great Tribulation such as the world has nver known (after the abomination of desolation) Mt 24:29 after the tribulation of those days the sun is darkened and moon has no light... Taken Mt 24:31 angels come with great sound of trumpet and gather the elect Mt 24:40-41 two there with one taken and the other left Time is near Mt 24:14 gospel preached to all the nations then shall the end come Mt24:33 when ye see these things, know that it is near even at the door So, sadly, I find it impossible to use Mt 24 to prove a mid, pre, or post tribulation rapture as this passage seems to repeat itself, jumbling the events just enough to remain obscured untill its actually happening, which btw, Rev also seems to do, to me, in its descriptions of these events.

Shem, Noah's oldest son lived until Jacob was 50 years old and i suspect that he might have been Melchizadec. He was also in line from Noah to Jesus. Another thing about him is that he lived for 100 years with Methuselah, who was alive before Adam died. So, I suspect that he, at least, along with his father Noah be of the Lord.

Hey! Ozell... Praise the Lord! Faith grows in us as we put the word of the Lord into our minds(Rom 10:17,Mt13:31&Mt17:20) and when we use it to obtain prayer requests. Even when we have the faith to obtain our request, the Lord will try our faith to add(Jam1:3) perseverance. Faith is that form of believing that is only based upon the Lord's word and will always produce works appropriate to repentance, or will always produce a moral change of behavior, in those who have it. The Lord illuminates his word, here a little, and there a little, making the logos(word) to become rhema(word) of Jesus and this illuminated word is written onto the tablets of our hearts and we learn of the Lord(Jn17:3) as he fulfills his New Covenant promise in us; Heb 8:10-12KJV "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Faith is also active and not just a belief system. It is meant to be used to obtain the Lord's promises and effect change in the lives of those who are in need and whom the Lord loves so much. 1Cor4:20NAS "For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power." Gal3:2-5NAS "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain, if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" Jam2:18KJV "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." **I imagine that the faith works of an apostle would be miraculous and hard to dispute!** 2Cor12:12 "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 1Thes1:5NAS "for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." Act6:8 "And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people." Mk16:17-20 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen." **What better proof of faith can there be than answered prayer.** What can we do to make our faith active and more effective? 1st: We fill our minds with the Lord's word and memorize those verses that speak to our hearts. Jesus resisted temptation by the scripture that he committed to memory before the time of temptation. David said by the Spirit in Ps119:11 "Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." 2nd: We fast. Even after Jesus' disciples we given the ability to cast out demons, they came across one that they were unable to affect. The man asked Jesus to help and cried out in response to Jesus words, "I believe, help thou my unbelief." Jesus then cast out the demon and told his disciples that this kind does not come out but by prayer and fasting. If you really want answered prayer, add fasting to your requests. And again, "Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast." 3rd: Don't stop, Persevere! Let's make each prayer request a prayer project, where we will press the Lord for someone's needed answer until we get it! Jesus told us of an unjust magistrate, who was visited by a widow, asking him to avenge her of her enemy, but he would send her away. After some time, the unjust magistrate said to himself, even though I care not about the Lord or justice, I will avenge her of her adversary because her continual coming wears me down." Jesus then said, "how much more will your heavenly Father hear you." Or here is a verse that is usually taken in the negative, but let's take it as a positive promise and ensnare ourselves with the Lord's word and our own prayer requests! Prov6:2 "Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth." 4th: Let's Add fervency to our prayers because the Lord wants us to want to!!! As we grow closer to the Lord, the Lord shares his heart with us and the love that he has for others grows within us and our motivation to serve grows and our willingness also grows to sacrifice our entertainments in order to do those things needful for success. ie... by working our relationship with the Lord; by filling our minds with the Lord's word and by praying without ceasing. Besides the immediate blessing of gaining that knowledge from the word and having someone blessed by that prayer of faith. Prayer, especially long prayer time increases our sensitivity to the Lord's still small voice and our prayers become more and more focused, wheras when our minds are being filled with the scripture, we are purifying our consciences to perceive sin more and more which means that we will feel guilt for things that we once delighted in which is one of the ways we are being transformed into the predestined image of our savior Jesus Christ, our God and King. **Scriptures will be with us, even in New Jerusalem.** If I may, I'll have more later regarding your other point... Greg Praise the Lord in the name of Jesus, our God and King!

Even when we turn to the Lord and are born of the Spirit, we, like the Jews who entered the promised land have to go in and posses the land. So that we come to the Lord as we are and then the Lord uses his word to; Rom12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." And, Eph5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." And again, 2Tim3:16, 17 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." The Holy Spirit uses the scriptures that we put into our minds to transform us into Jesus' moral image by delivering us from all the junk or the enslavement to the various sins that we had in our lives when we came to him. 2Pet1: 3,4 "seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." King David said in Ps 119:9 "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word." And again in Ps 119:11 "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." Jesus said, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." And again, "The words I speak unto you, they are Spirit and they are life." Rom8:6 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,"

John 11:11-14 This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep." The disciples then said to Him, "Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover." Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead," Hebrews chapter 11 tells us of those who have gone before us in faith and then, in Heb 12:1; "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us." They cannot be our witnesses, if they are asleep. And the encouragement to lay aside the sin that does so easily beset us is made poignant or is being emphasized because we are surrounded by those who have already fought the good fight of faith and have finished the race and will be waiting for us to join them one day.

There is a world of difference between faith and belief, where faith is that form of believing that is only based upon the Lord's word and will always produce works appropriate to repentance in the one who has it.