glf Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/16/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1954 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Okay, let's just say for the sake of argument that they are one and the same. There is nothing about what Jesus says that denies eternal security. Jesus says, "to him who overcomes, I will not blot his name from the book of life." How do we overcome? For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. (1Jn 5:4) The one who overcomes, the one who is born of God (a genuine Christian) has overcome and His Name is not in danger of being blotted out. These are those who have overcome... Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Mk 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Heb 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glf Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/16/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1954 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Hello Ecc, Lets say for the sake of argument that there is one Book...is it possible that every person who has ever lived is contained in that Book, and those that draw their last breath and still reject Jesus are those whose names are blotted out, rather than those who have become sons of the Most High G-d, born again of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit and destined for an inheritance given to them freely by the Father through the Son? Also I don't think it is ingenuous to talk of a true 'born again' experience only happening when we die...I was 'truly' born again when I believed on Jesus as my L-rd and Saviour....I may still walk in this human shell whose destiny is corruption, but my spirit has been made alive, and it is not I that live, but Messiah in me...which is why there is a permanent relationship cry that goes out from my heart to my 'Abba'. 1John 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Yes we can know... 1 Jn5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith. We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it. I know this may be a hard one to understand but the gift that Jesus gave was not salvation! The gift that He gave ALLOWS each and everyone of us the chance at salvation! Now that He has given us the means or way to salvation it is up to us to do what is needed to obtain it. . This is completely false: But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Rom 6:22-23) Notice that I am NOW free from sin. It is not something God is giving me a chance at. I am NOW free from sin and the gift of God is eternal life. I have eternal life RIGHT NOW. What you are teaching is no different than pagan religions that teach you have work your way to perfection. The Bible says: And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1Jn 5:11-13) These verses tell me that I can know RIGHT NOW that I have eternal life; that I am saved this very minute. The Bible teaches that salvation is something we can today. It is not something I have wait for. It is not something that I have to earn and it is not something that God gives me a chance at. You are promoting false teachings that should be rejected by any true follower of Christ. If you are depending on anything other than Jesus, you are NOT a Christian. You are misusing and misapplying the Bible to promote your false teaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glf Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 48 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/16/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/19/1954 Share Posted November 1, 2011 So you believe that your salvation is up to you? You are the one who determines whether or not you are saved? Who else is MY salvation up to other than me? Why did Jesus come? To shed His blood so that we could again have the right to eternal life. Who did Jesus die for? EVERYBODY! But will EVERYBODY be saved? NO! Even though we have Jesus saying this; "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." And how was the whole world saved? By allowing everyone the CHANCE to eternal life! If Jesus came to save.....and to guarantee salvation for all......if that was His goal, then He failed! Jesus came so that we would not have to shed our OWN blood for the remission of sins. Now that He has done that do we continue in SIN? NO! Rom.6 [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? And what is the ONLY action that will cause a name to be blotted out of God's books? SIN! And WHO determines whether or not I sin? ME! Now this TOO may not be the answer you are looking for....but it's my answer to your question. . . Rom 14:22 "Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Rom 14:23 "And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." 1Tim1:19 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck." for Exp: Rom14:14,15 "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Does this mean that only those things that bother me are wrong or are a sin. NO! Our consciences are continually being renewed by the word of the Lord, so that as we grow closer to him in holiness, the things that we once delighted in become points of conviction. Evenso, the Lord's word is the absolute standard for good or bad behavior and then our consciences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 No, you are mistaken. James is not talking about justicifcation before God. [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Who else would Abraham care about being justified before? Certainly not man? And who is it that declares justification? Man? No! God justifies man based upon mans actions! James is not talking about God justifiying anyone. That is not the object James has in view. You are ignoring the context. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (Jas 2:18-20) The object James has in view here is our profession of faith being affirmed (justified) by our works. He is not talking how to get saved. James 2 is not a treatise on salvation like we find in John 3 or Ephesians 2. James is dealing with the practical side of Christian living and how our profession of faith is revealed as authentic through our good deads. Abraham was justified by faith AND it was his faith that was justified by His acts of faith. Abraham was justified 25 years BEFORE circumcision, 430 years before the law. Abraham was justified BEFORE he offered Isaac on the altar. Abraham was justified by BEFORE he had anything other than the promise of God. Abraham had done NOTHING for God prior to be justified. There was nothing for Abraham to do. Abraham's works sprung out of his faith which had already been credited to Him as righteousness. So anything that Abraham did justified his faith. His works confirmed his faith. James gives seveal examples of people whose faith prompted them to do what they did. Their faith was justified or affirmed by their actions. They operated by faith meaning they had to have already had the faith in place in order for there to be works to justify their faith. Now....getting back to this..... What most do not understand is that Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws throughout his writings. Think about it for a moment......how can Paul keep God's laws, tell others to keep God's laws, tell us that God's laws are holy, just and good AND at the same time tell us that ALL of those same laws have been nailed to His cross? When Paul speaks of the 'works/deeds' of the law he is NOT talking about the laws he called holy, just and good! Really? Let's see: Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Rom 7:12) Your assertions are ridiculous. Paul only ever refers to works in the context of the law. Jesus said the entire law was summed up in loving God and loving man. Every act of love is rooted in the law. So to try and argue that there are two laws (which the Bible doesn't say) is nonsnense and really shows that you are desperately reaching for straws to hang on to your losing position. There is ONE standard of righteousness in Scripture and it is the law given at Mt. Sinai. That is the standard that Jesus lived by. Paul references the law of Moses many times in the NT. And it is the righteousness of the law that is being fulfilled in those of us who are genuine followers of Christ (Rom. 8:4). Sorrry but your "two laws" argument is just silly and I am embarrassed for you that you offer up such a weak and unbiblical argument in public. What was nailed to the cross was the law's condemnation, the penalty prescribed by the law that says sentences us to death because of our sin. The law's requirement/comandment that we must die for our sins was nailed to Jesus' cross and he bore that penalty on our behalf. He bore away the death penalty and offers us eternal life instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldShep Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 137 Days Won: 6 Joined: 07/20/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/12/1950 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith. We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it. I know this may be a hard one to understand but the gift that Jesus gave was not salvation! The gift that He gave ALLOWS each and everyone of us the chance at salvation! Now that He has given us the means or way to salvation it is up to us to do what is needed to obtain it. . Sir Eccl12v13; I do believe you are performing a~~~. I hope you find your way back. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccl12v13 Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 Only one person has even come close to answering the following question....and even then they went in such a round about way that the answer could be hard to see.... So again I ask..... What was the free gift? What was it that made it possible to remove the curse of the law? What is the ONLY thing that Jesus gave that made it possible for man to come from under his sins? Eph.2 [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph.2:8 does not say that it was salvation that was the free gift....it states that GRACE was the gift! Now.......here's the big question...... What is the grace that Jesus gave that answers ALL of the above questions? You cannot plug in the word 'salvation'! That does not answer the questions! So...what was this grace that Jesus gave for all of mankind to have the right to eternal life? It's a simple one word answer that God clearly gives us in His word. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldEnglishSheepdog Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 844 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 118 Days Won: 11 Joined: 12/23/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted November 1, 2011 Only one person has even come close to answering the following question....and even then they went in such a round about way that the answer could be hard to see.... So again I ask..... What was the free gift? What was it that made it possible to remove the curse of the law? What is the ONLY thing that Jesus gave that made it possible for man to come from under his sins? Eph.2 [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph.2:8 does not say that it was salvation that was the free gift....it states that GRACE was the gift! No it doesn't. It says that salvation by grace through faith is the gift. This is synonomous with saying salvation is the gift of God, just like we see in Romans 6:23 "the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). What is the grace that Jesus gave that answers ALL of the above questions? You cannot plug in the word 'salvation'! That does not answer the questions! So...what was this grace that Jesus gave for all of mankind to have the right to eternal life? It's a simple one word answer that God clearly gives us in His word. . Your question does not make sense. Grace is underserved favour and by His grace we have the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord because He gave us the grace to take the wages of our sin which was death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccl12v13 Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 What was nailed to the cross was the law's condemnation, the penalty prescribed by the law that says sentences us to death because of our sin. The law's requirement/comandment that we must die for our sins was nailed to Jesus' cross and he bore that penalty on our behalf. He bore away the death penalty and offers us eternal life instead. If this is true, if it was the penalty of the law that says we must die for our sins that was nailed to the cross.....how is it that when Jesus returens He is STILL going to punish sinners for breaking His laws? Because God's word tells us the following; Rom.6 [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now you are claiming that there are no more wages of sin. And if there are no more wages of sin then ALL will be granted into God's kingdom! But we know this will NOT be the case! So what was really nailed to His cross? Let's read.... Col.2 [14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; God's word tells us it was 'ORDINANCES' that was against us....and was contrary to us....and was taken out of the way......and was NAILED TO HIS CROSS! So it was NOT the penalty of the law that was nailed to His cross as you claim! It was ORDINANCES that was nailed to HIs cross! Now the question is WHICH? Was it do not steal? Was it do not murder? Was it do not lie? Was it one, four, or ALL of God's laws that was nailed to His cross? Which laws were against us? Which laws was contrary to us? Do you have an answer? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccl12v13 Posted November 1, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 "....He gave us the grace to take the wages of our sin which was death." Again.....but what was the grace that He gave? God's word is VERY clear about what was needed to remove the curse of the law from man! Do you not know this? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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