Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Littlelambseativy]

Are works needed for salvation?

I never asked are works ONLY needed.

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No. Jesus Christ in dying on the cross worked out our salvation. We therefore have nothing to do to gain heaven but believe in Jesus Christ and His atoning blood. It is complete.

We do things to please Him because of our love for Him and His sacrifice but even if we did nothing but accept His 'free gift of salvation' we would still be with Him in heaven. Our works to the Father are dirty rags in comparison to His Son's sacrifice.

The works that we do are for rewards in heaven nothing more nothing less - to gain salvation - absolutely NOT.

[Eccl12v13]

Ok, here is my attempt to wade into these choppy waters. My disclaimer here is that I am a bit unfamiliar with the OSAS debate, so if I mischaracterize in anyway, I apologize. I have done a brief scan through of both sides and here is where I fall. If I end up running from these waters screaming like a sissy, please do not think any less of me. It will be that I realized I was not ready for this topic.

As I understand, OSAS, it is the belief that once a person comes to salvation, his salvation cannot be "removed" from him of his own accord and/or that God has already chosen those that are to be saved.

Personally, I reject this. My basis is this: Acts 10, with focus on verses 34 and 35. The quick version of events here is this: a Roman military offical (whom I will name Corny, for sake of brevity) caught the attention of God, who sends an angel, telling Corny to seek out Peter. Peter, meanwhile, has seen a vision of a sheet full of "unclean" animals being offered to him as food. After a back and forth with God about what is clean and unclean, Peter is left a bit bewildered about it. Then the men sent from Corny arrive and inquire about Peter. Peter goes with the men back to Corny, who explains to Peter his encounter with the angel. Here, Peter understands his own vision as God opening the gift of salvation even to the "unclean" Gentile. Here is where verses 34 and 35 comes into play:

Acts 10:34- Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism, (35) but accepts men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right."

My analyis of this verse leads me to believe that God does not pick and choose who comes. He accepts all who come to understand the truth. John 1:12-13 speak to the same:

John 1:12-13- 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The emphasis in John, I believe, is in this phrase "Yet to all who did receive Him". It is a matter of human will to submit to God's authority, though I would point out that God's authority is not subject human will. God is Supreme, despite what we think or declare. It is man's responsibilty to choose the right way, that is submission to God.

As far as names being removed from the Book of Life, yes it does happen, through a person's choice to willfully and continually disobey God and dispise His authority. Can they return? Of course, but until they do, they will not gain the joys of Heaven. God has given us freewill, the allowance to choose for ourselves what path we will follow. But with this freedom comes a great responsibility: we are responsible for our actions and will have to answer for them.

Well, there are my thoughts concerning this topic. They are by no means comprehensive, nor are they meant as an end all of this discussion (I don't think I am that arrogant! ).

Love, Peace and Provision to each of you through our Blessed Redeemer,

Tin

Thanks for reading and for your reply on the topic. Continue to ask God for wisdom and understaning as you take God's word and read it for yourself and not go on what others tells you God's word says.

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[Eccl12v13]

We do things to please Him because of our love for Him and His sacrifice but even if we did nothing but accept His 'free gift of salvation'

Did Jesus give EVERYBODY this 'free gift of salvation'?

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[tintiger78]

Are works needed for salvation?

I never asked are works ONLY needed.

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Both are necessary, but only FAITH in the redeeming work of Christ results in salvation.

James 2:24 states that a person is justifyed by faith and the things they do. But do not read it incorrectly. Faith alone saves, while the "deeds" are an outward evidence of the inward change. We are saved because we accept the undeserved Gift. We do because we are gratetful.

At no point can we do anything that gains us salvation. I hope I made that distinction clear.

[Eccl12v13]

Are works needed for salvation?

I never asked are works ONLY needed.

.

No.

The instant I recieved Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savour my salvation was a done deal, I needed no "works" at that time.

My works of faith come throught out my walk as evidence of Christ in me.

So you do NOT believe works are needed for salvation! That's cool! At least you made a choice!

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[Eccl12v13]

Are works needed for salvation?

I never asked are works ONLY needed.

.

Both are necessary, but only FAITH in the redeeming work of Christ results in salvation.

James 2:24 states that a person is justifyed by faith and the things they do. But do not read it incorrectly. Faith alone saves, while the "deeds" are an outward evidence of the inward change. We are saved because we accept the undeserved Gift. We do because we are gratetful.

At no point can we do anything that gains us salvation. I hope I made that distinction clear.

Let me ask you something.....what will we be judged by when the books are opened? Our faith or our deeds....the actions we did or did not perform?

Just something to consider.

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[Isaiah 6:8]

OSAS IS IN FACT A DOCTRINAL BELIEF OR IS BELIEVED AS IF IT WERE A VIABLE DOCTRINE. But it is a false doctrine and it is not simply individuals who believe in the OSAS doctrine it is hundreds of millions of believers who have been decieved by the teaching of this false doctrine.

The idea of eternal security (which is the same doctrine as the OSAS doctrinal belief) is also a false teaching because ones name can be blotted out of the lambs book of life after being saved. Scripture is quit clear in that one must COMPLETE the race. Endure to the end or run the good race or you will not recieve the promised reward for crossing the finish line because you quit the race before you completed the course.

What does Paul say? "Should we continue to sin so that Grace shall abound all the more?" God forbid. If we are a drunk and come to Christ with the right heart and give our life over to Christ and then some time in the future turn back to Drunkeness. Do we still get the reward of eternal life with Jesus? No way Hosa. Because there will be no drunkerds in heaven. The only way we can be assured a place in heaven is if we cross the finish line with our integrety complete and shining. Not even the angels have eternal security. They have no redemption for thier disobedience.

Oh I almost forgot. In post # 42 you used the word "books" as in the plural to speak about the Lambs book of life. But there is only one Lambs book of life not more then one.

There are several problems with what you have posted. For one thing, you claim that eternal life is a reward that we must earn/win. But that is not what the Bible says. The Bible says that eternal life is a free gift.

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

The second problem is that you misreprsent the point that Paul is making in Rom. 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 6:1-2)

Paul's point makes the exact point I was making; that a sincere believer isn't living in sin or returning to a sinful life. A sincere believer has a heart to serve God.

Thirdly, you insist that eternal security and OSAS are the same but they are not. OSAS is a perversion of Eternal Security A peson who has authentic profession of faith in Christ is eternally secure in the knowledge that God is not going to rescind the plan of salvation and take away the salvatoin He promised. It has nothing to do with thinking you can live any way you want. That is the perversion that OSAS speaks to.

Your questions reek of witchcraft.

Aw c'mon Massorite, can't you come up with a better personal attack than that?

Actually we do have control over our salvation. God may have called us but it was our choice to choose Christ over the things of this world and it our God given choice to throw away or salvation by falling back into un-repented sin.

Except for the promise of Agape Love, every single promise God gave or has given us is based on conditions set forth by God that we have to obey before we can recieve the reward God has promised us. If you keep my statutes. If you obey my commandments. If you repent and stay that way I will give you eternal life.

So what happens if we don't keep the commandments of God? Should we expect to recieve the reward for our disobedience? I don't think so.

It is through the Grace of God that we are given the chance to recieve salvation but it by our choice that we keep our salvation by seeking to be Christ like unto death.

The problem is that you cannot build a biblical case for that position. In fact, you have to rely solely human reasoning and logic to arrive at the notion that what God says is a gift, is really a reward that has to be earned.

Sorry to disappoint but it wasn't a personal attack. It was an observation.

Yes, that was a personal attack. Calling a fellow christian a witch, and stating that they are performing witchcraft is a personal attack.

This thread is getting heated, Everyone lets remember, Debate the subject not the person. If it keeps getting personal I will shut it down.

[Eccl12v13]

The answer really should not be that hard to find....as long as we do what God tells us!

Luke 4

[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Now if you take the above scripture and add the following;

2 Tim.3

[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The answer should become quite clear now that we have instructions. God tells us to use ALL of His words to live by AND that we should ALL of His words for our doctrine. Let's see if what we have below meets the requirments in God's instructions;

Are James writings the word of God? Why YES! Yes they are!

And are we to use ALL of God's words to live by? Yep!

And are we to use ALL scriptures for our doctrine? Yes again!

So let's read what James tells us concerning faith and works and come to a conclusion;

James 2

[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Again we have James asking the question.... Can faith save a man? Will faith give salvation? Let's read James' reply;

[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

God's word tells us that works is the manifestation of faith....not the other way around!

Well now......that seems very clear! Faith AND works are needed for salvation!

Is this WRONG?

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[tintiger78]

Are works needed for salvation?

I never asked are works ONLY needed.

.

Both are necessary, but only FAITH in the redeeming work of Christ results in salvation.

James 2:24 states that a person is justifyed by faith and the things they do. But do not read it incorrectly. Faith alone saves, while the "deeds" are an outward evidence of the inward change. We are saved because we accept the undeserved Gift. We do because we are gratetful.

At no point can we do anything that gains us salvation. I hope I made that distinction clear.

Let me ask you something.....what will we be judged by when the books are opened? Our faith or our deeds....the actions we did or did not perform?

Just something to consider.

.

It depends on the judgement you recieve. The Great White Throne is reserved for the unrepentant. If your name is in the Book of Life, you are then at the Judgement seat of Christ, where "rewards" are handed out to those that qualify for them. Our actions will be judged on basis of our intentions. At least that is how I understand Matt. 25:31-46.

[Isaiah 6:8]

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It's not about anything I can do to earn my way in to heaven, but all about Him who thru His marvelous Love and Grace has GIVEN us entrance thru acceptance of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Blessings stacey c

Sin, which is something you do, can destroy your faith. Right?

Where does it say that sin, in and of itself destroys your faith?

There are many who are outwardly righteous that will not make it, and there are many who are not so outwardly righteous that will. The word says that nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ. Nothing.

Now if you are speaking of turning your back on Christ and fully rejecting him, then yes, that is a sin that can cause you to lose your faith. However, if a person is a drug addict and gets saved but dies before he beats his addiction, would they be saved, as they are living in sin, but fighting against it?

I don't think the bible actually says that. But sin is like a cancer which if not treated will continue to consume more and more of that which is good. Thereby destroying our faith in Christ. our need for Christ and our desire for Christ.

However when scripture says that "a little leaven, will leaven the whole lump" it is talking about the contamination of the whole lump by just a little bit of sin which means that a little bit of unrepented sin that goes untreated or unrepented from will destroy our individual salvation.

Yes and the leaven is speaking of a sinful person affecting the rest of the Church body. We all have some sin, however a single sin does not separate us. As I stated, rejecting the cross is the only thing I know of that will separate you. You can not say fall into lust, and be separated. However if you make lust a lifestyle, and do so while fully rejecting the cross then it will become your god and not Jesus.

I see the difference as this. Falling down, vs, jumping down into the mud and throwing a temper tantrum and refusing to get up, but even then, salvation is not about works, nor do I believe it is predestined like many osas people claim. However I don't belive that if you chose give into temptation, and die right then that is a loss of salvation. You see the dangerous part is this, this puts us in a position as it puts us into the spot of judging peoples salvation.