Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 You use your muscles to make it over. Just believing without any action/work leaves you nowhere! You accept the gift. You sit on the shoulders. What you are saying is that by spending the energy to open up your hand and take a gift is work. This is not works, or a work. It is simply receiving. You see your right though, that is where my illustration breaks down, you do have to climb onto and hold on to the shoulders. In reality, once you accept the Gift, God lifts us and carry us along we do nothing but relax in him and allow him to make us into a new creature. Did not God's word tell us that Abraham was justified by WORKS?. Nope it says over and over again that he was justified by Faith. As you read in my previous post in Galatians. Galatians 3 Justification by Faith 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. So no, in fact the word does not say he was justified by works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,247 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,496 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hello Ecc, Lets say for the sake of argument that there is one Book...is it possible that every person who has ever lived is contained in that Book, and those that draw their last breath and still reject Jesus are those whose names are blotted out, rather than those who have become sons of the Most High G-d, born again of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit and destined for an inheritance given to them freely by the Father through the Son? Also I don't think it is ingenuous to talk of a true 'born again' experience only happening when we die...I was 'truly' born again when I believed on Jesus as my L-rd and Saviour....I may still walk in this human shell whose destiny is corruption, but my spirit has been made alive, and it is not I that live, but Messiah in me...which is why there is a permanent relationship cry that goes out from my heart to my 'Abba'. 1John 3:1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. Dan 7:10, Rev 20:12 more than one book... The book of works or remembrance Ps 56:8, 139:4, Mal 3:16 The book of conscience of heart Rom 2:14-16 The Book of The Living Word Jn12:48-50 The Book of Law Gal 3:10 The Book of eternal councils Ps 139:16-18 The book of life Ex 32:32-33; Ps 69:28; Dan 12:1-2; Phil 4:3; Rev 3:5; 13:8; 21:27 Life began when God breathed into Adam "God's Book of Life Began" Dispensational dealings of God with man Innocense...................................Gen 1:28-3:13 Conscience.................................Gen 3:23-7:23 Human Government....................Gen 8:20-11:9 Promise.......................................Gen12:1-Ex 19:8 Law..............................................Ex 19:8-Matt 27:53 Grace...........................................New Testament to Rapture (Lamb's Book of Life) Millennial Kingdom.......................Eph 1:10, Dan 9:20-27, Rev 20; 21 We who are born in the glorious time of the Lamb Of God who came and believe into new birth are excluded from all judgment except that of reward by Christ... if in the single cell of our bodies lies the most intricate thing we have ever witnessed and God is planning on throwing that away.... what of the coming of exactness of His Own Presence in the judgments of all mankind not found in the Lamb's Book of Life? Love, Steven Eternal State................................Rev 22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~candice~ Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 955 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 11,318 Content Per Day: 1.89 Reputation: 448 Days Won: 33 Joined: 12/16/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith. We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccl12v13 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Did not God's word tell us that Abraham was justified by WORKS?. Nope it says over and over again that he was justified by Faith. As you read in my previous post in Galatians. Galatians 3 Justification by Faith 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. So no, in fact the word does not say he was justified by works. James 2 [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Are we to ignore the writings of James? All of God's word MUST work together! If we find what 'appears' to be a contridition we must search God's word for a solution! What most do not understand is that Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws throughout his writings. Think about it for a moment......how can Paul keep God's laws, tell others to keep God's laws, tell us that God's laws are holy, just and good AND at the same time tell us that ALL of those same laws have been nailed to His cross? When Paul speaks of the 'works/deeds' of the law he is NOT talking about the laws he called holy, just and good! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isaiah 6:8 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 426 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 3,633 Content Per Day: 0.58 Reputation: 222 Days Won: 13 Joined: 03/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/26/1978 Share Posted October 31, 2011 We seem to have a confusion on what faith really is, and how it works..... Lets take a look at one of my favorite chapters on faith, Hebrews 11. Hebrews 11 (NKJV) By Faith We Understand 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. Faith at the Dawn of History 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”;for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Faithful Abraham 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a childwhen she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. The Heavenly Hope 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. The Faith of the Patriarchs 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones. The Faith of Moses 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command. 24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned. By Faith They Overcame 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Notice the pattern, they By faith, then did some work or deed. The work or deed was done from, and by faith. It was not done one its own, It came from the faith, Faith as it were is a well that we can draw the good works from. You see we are justified by faith first. THEN the works come. You see if you do not have faith, and your works will be empty, have no life, be dry. If you have faith but do not do anything with it, its not really faith, its only belief and easily turned to unbelief by the merest whim or even the thought of putting any action to the faith. So if you have faith, you are justified. Being Justified, you will as a byproduct do good works, as God is making you a new creature. As you are a new creature your very behavior will show the change from old to new. You see its not just the faith but the life change that Christ works as you let him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,247 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,496 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 31, 2011 All of you who come before Christ thinking you are justified by works will be as these- Matt 7:21-23 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' NKJV but those who upon His Mercy fall this Luke 18:10-14 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." NKJV It is here satan cannot follow nor his children.... for it is his pride that sustains his evil into everlasting torment! Thus God has written it ..... So it shall be so! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 James 2 [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Are we to ignore the writings of James? All of God's word MUST work together! If we find what 'appears' to be a contridition we must search God's word for a solution! What most do not understand is that Paul speaks of TWO sets of laws throughout his writings. Think about it for a moment......how can Paul keep God's laws, tell others to keep God's laws, tell us that God's laws are holy, just and good AND at the same time tell us that ALL of those same laws have been nailed to His cross? When Paul speaks of the 'works/deeds' of the law he is NOT talking about the laws he called holy, just and good! . No, you are mistaken. James is not talking about justicifcation before God. James' line of thought has to do with how our works justify or "affirm" our faith in the sight of men. His point is that you cannot demonstrate your faith without deeds. It is your deeds that justify you in terms of proving the authenticity of your profession of faith. Paul on the other hand is referring to faith being imputed to us as the justifying element before God. Our faith is credited to us as righteousness just as Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Justification in Romans 4 is an entirely different context and subject matter than the 2nd chapter of James that teaches that it is works that justify us and our testimony in the sight of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 We seem to have a confusion on what faith really is, and how it works..... Lets take a look at one of my favorite chapters on faith, Hebrews 11. Hebrews 11 (NKJV) By Faith We Understand 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. Faith at the Dawn of History 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”;for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. 7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Faithful Abraham 8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a childwhen she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore. The Heavenly Hope 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. The Faith of the Patriarchs 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones. The Faith of Moses 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command. 24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned. By Faith They Overcame 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. Notice the pattern, they By faith, then did some work or deed. The work or deed was done from, and by faith. It was not done one its own, It came from the faith, Faith as it were is a well that we can draw the good works from. You see we are justified by faith first. THEN the works come. You see if you do not have faith, and your works will be empty, have no life, be dry. If you have faith but do not do anything with it, its not really faith, its only belief and easily turned to unbelief by the merest whim or even the thought of putting any action to the faith. So if you have faith, you are justified. Being Justified, you will as a byproduct do good works, as God is making you a new creature. As you are a new creature your very behavior will show the change from old to new. You see its not just the faith but the life change that Christ works as you let him. Good post, Isaiah!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eccl12v13 Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 11 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 115 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2011 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 Romans 4 makes this crystal clear, Abe was justified by faith. We do not need to do work to secure our salvation, it is wholly a gift. The works are an indication that the salvation has taken place, and have nothing to do with keeping or securing it. I know this may be a hard one to understand but the gift that Jesus gave was not salvation! The gift that He gave ALLOWS each and everyone of us the chance at salvation! Now that He has given us the means or way to salvation it is up to us to do what is needed to obtain it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted October 31, 2011 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted October 31, 2011 By insisting that you need works to accompany faith, you demean the work of Jesus Christ on the cross and put your works above the free gift of salvation. You cannot have it your way if Jesus gave it freely to you. It cannot be bought at any cost. As I said your works are as filthy rags to the Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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