Does THIS Doctrine line up with God's Words?

[Isaiah 6:8]

Your claim that the sowing and reaping are not related to eternal life is contradicted by Paul's words.

The one who SOWS to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Nothing in the rest of the passage contradicts or changes these words.

Please actually answer the question I asked.

You see in context, this verse is not about salvation by works, but about not boasting in who you are, and that your works, will show where your heart is. What you sow you shall reap that is principle that speaks to faith. You see sowing to the spirit, would be faith, would it not? How do you so to the spirit? You see this is a call to good deed, however at the end of the chapter, Paul again reiterates that only the cross matters.

Your words have nothing to so with Pauls words. How do you sow faith, by the way?

Regarding sowing:

2 Cor 9

6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work

Regarding our responsibilities:

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Then how does the sowing and reaping in this scripture deal with salvation?

[Isaiah 6:8]

Your claim that the sowing and reaping are not related to eternal life is contradicted by Paul's words.

The one who SOWS to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Nothing in the rest of the passage contradicts or changes these words.

Please actually answer the question I asked.

You see in context, this verse is not about salvation by works, but about not boasting in who you are, and that your works, will show where your heart is. What you sow you shall reap that is principle that speaks to faith. You see sowing to the spirit, would be faith, would it not? How do you so to the spirit? You see this is a call to good deed, however at the end of the chapter, Paul again reiterates that only the cross matters.

Your words have nothing to so with Pauls words. How do you sow faith, by the way?

Regarding sowing:

2 Cor 9

6Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work

Regarding our responsibilities:

Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Ephesians 5:5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Then how does the sowing and reaping in this scripture deal with salvation?

And why do you ignore the preceding paragraphs that makes it clear that works do not save. As I highlighted.

[OldShep]

Lord Help Me:

Those who are truly born again do live a different kind of life. They obey Him (Joh_14:15), they abide in Him (Joh_15:5-7), and they walk in the light (Joh_8:12; 1Jn_1:7). They are saved by the Lamb of God who, as their replacement Sacrifice, takes away the penalty of their sin.Salvation is by faith in Christ. Damnation is because we choose to reject God’s Son (Joh_3:36). {taken from The Bible Knowledge Commentary}

In support of this doctrine of salvation by God’s grace,Jesus cited the Old Testament. The quotation, They will all be taught by God,is from the Prophets, probably Isa_54:13, though Jer_31:34 has the same thought. This “teaching” of God refers to His inner work that disposes people to accept the truth about Jesus and respond to Him. Everyone who listens to and learns from God will come to and believe in Jesus.

1 Corinthians 9:20

Though Paul was primarily an apostle to the Gentiles (Gal_2:8), he never lost his concern for the salvation of his own people (Rom_9:3). He made it his custom to seek out the synagogue in each town he entered (Act_17:2) in order to win the Jews(Rom_1:16). No verse points out more starkly Paul’s own consciousness of what he was, both before and after meeting Christ. Before, he was the Jew’s Jew,faultless with regard to legalistic righteousness (Php_3:6). Afterward, he was a new man (2Co_5:17; Gal_2:20), who had found in Christ the righteousness he had sought (Rom_10:4; 1Co_1:30). He was still a Hebrew (2Co_11:22; Php_3:5),but he was no longer a Jew living according to the Law (I… am not under the law). Still, he was willing to subject himself to the scruples of the Jews(e.g., Act_21:23-36) in order to gain a hearing for the gospel and to win them to Christ. Yet he never compromised the essence of the gospel at the heart of which was salvation by faith, not works (Gal_2:16; Eph_2:8-9) and freedom from legalism (Gal_2:4-5).

Galatians 5:4

Turning To Law Is To Fall Away From Grace (Gal_5:4-6)

Turning to the Law and accepting circumcision or any other type of works, as a meritorious work has further dire implications which the Galatians were called on to consider. Anyone seeking justification by Law has been alienated from Christ, that is,such a person is not living in a sphere where Christ is functioning, they are trying to do it their way, and God being a loving parent, sometimes says. OK have it your way. While He weeps over our lose.

The KJV has a helpful rendering, “Christ is become of no effect unto you.” In addition, said Paul, they would have fallen away from Grace.

The issue here is not the possible loss of salvation, for “grace” is referred to not as salvation itself but as a method of salvation ( Gal_2:21 where “a Law” route is mentioned as an unworkable way to come to Christ). If the Galatians accepted circumcision (works) as necessary for salvation, they would be leaving the {grace system}for the {Mosaic Law system.} { The Bible Knowledge Commentary}

The same error is being repeated today here when a believer leaves a church that emphasizes salvation by grace through faith and joins one which teaches that salvation depends on repentance, confession, faith, baptism, and church membership. The error being that of understanding , that is how the Finish works of Christ Jesus, reveals it's self.

His works produces_{(gives birth to change)} a by-product that is seen within any sinner that has truly felt his awesome Grace, Love, and acceptance of the sinner, while hating the sin with-in that sinner. In my case I felt the sorrow, felt the grief that my sins had cause Him and to those that I had harmed in this life.This drove me to my knees and lead me to repent from the evil that I once did and it lead me to openly confess those sins before God and my church, while holding onto the Faith and the Grace that God gave me. My baptism was done in Faith as an outward expression, to show that an inward change had taken place, the old me had died and was raised again with-in Christ ^{{received the Holy Spirit}}. The old was gone and the new is here.(2Cor5-17) I hang around church members not because I'm trying to do works, but by the Love of Christ that now lives with-in me, seeking and desiring to be with other people that have come to Love Christ as well.

I was once a slave to sin, now set free of that burden, yet, I still have with-in me a spirit that now and then fights against the Holy Spirit with me, and I do things my way, which I know is not what the Lord would really have me do, so yes, I still sin, however, these sins are not going to cause my Christ Jesus to remove his promised of salvation given to me. Could I turn my back to Him? God Forbid! Yet, a bunch of Angles turned their backs to God so who am I to think I am better then any of those who have fallen. When I look upon sin I have to remind myself But for the Grace of God, go I….keeping my eyes upon Him that gives me strength to say no to Sin. For with out His strength I may very well reach out and slap some up side of their head.

Nothing done by me, should be seen as works to gain God's Mercy, Grace, Forgiveness and Salvation that comes through Christ Jesus, who died in my place, so that I might live.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Lord I pray that all this fighting and disagreeing would end and that all believers could come together as one clearly focus voice in Praise To you Oh Lord!

Well that is my point of view, {youuu- allll,} are welcome to yours.

In Christian Love:Dennis

[~candice~]

Dennis those penguins are so funny.

Awesome post

[Guest]

Where is everyone that said 'salvation' was grace?

Grace Started It

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

Grace Did It

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2

And Grace Will Finish It

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

Are You Covered By Grace

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Really?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

[glf]

I used to believe in osas near as much as I did in Jesus, but this is what I found in the scriptures. I spent several days in tears before the Lord regarding this doctrine and I know how hard it is to let go... Faith is a gift and since it is a gift it is not by works but by grace. Faith produces behavior that is appropriate to repentance in the one who has it, to prove that faith, whereas belief does not lead to anything in the one who has it. Even if one is doing a worse sin than most, like the brother in 1 Cor 5, who was still counted as being a believer and he repented later and was welcomed back into fellowship of that congregation. The works that are appropriate to repentance is faith in Jesus and loving others, but also both faith and love are fruits of the Spirit and grow as we abide in the vine. Many are called but few are chosen. It is those who answer the call of the Lord by calling on him, who are chosen.

Mt 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Mt 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Mk 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Heb 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Heb 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

2Pet 2:20-23 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Mt 12:30-32 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

Mt 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Mk 9:43-48 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Mk 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Jn 15:6 "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Rom 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Rom 11:20-22 "Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

1Cor 9:27 "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

Rom 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

2Cor 12:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates."

Gal 5:4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Gal 6:9 "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap if we faint not."

1 Thes 3:5 "For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain."

1 Tim 1:19 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck."

1 Tim4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."

1Tim 6:10 "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows."

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Heb 6:4-6 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

2 Pet 2:20,21 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

2 Pet3:17 "Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

1Jn 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."

1 Jn 5:16,17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

******

Salvation is by faith in the Lord and the one who has it, will produce works meet to repentance, some thirty-fold, some sixty-fold and some a hundred-fold. In 1 Cor 5, we see the man who was with his father's wife. He was to be shunned, but not to be counted as an unbeliever. He repented later in 2 Cor and was welcomed back into fellowship. Or take the example in 1Cor 8:8-13, where one who has a weak conscience saw another eating meat sacrificed to an idol. We know that food is sanctified by the word of God and by prayer. But he one's whose faith is weak and who doesn't have this knowledge is embolden to eat when he sees another brother eating and his conscience being weak can cause that one to feel guilty before the Lord and therefore to stumble and even fall as a result in the one for whom Christ died. The difference between stumbling and falling is that when we stumble, we get up. Sadly, we all stumble in many ways and when we sin or when we think we sin, our consciences can separate us from the Lord's presence in our own minds because of that guilt.

It would be better to believe in OSAS than to believe; saved today, lost tomorrow, and then saved again on the next day. Sadly, the doctrine of osas leads to a lack of concern for our own safety and for others by providing a sense of false security and complacency. Even in New Jerusalem, there will be a forbidden fruit that if we do not partake, we are choosing the Lord because without a choice we will be there by compulsion and the Lord wants us to want him. The forbidden fruit is the sin that is neither forgiven in this life nor in the life to come, which I do not lile to even mention. Now-a-days many trust in the religion of Christianity just as the Arab person does for Islam. There is no relationship for that one because there is no Allah. So too, for the one who just believes in Christianity without that connection to the Lord by faith. Faith is that form of believing that is only based upon the Lord's word and will always produce works or a growing moral behavior appropriate to repentance. Its just that we grow at different rates from one another and so its hard to see that change in some of the more slowly growing believers who may be neglecting the scriptures. That's why we are not to judge if another who professes Jesus is saved or not because we cannot see into their heart. We can determine by the fruits of the Spirit in their lives wither they are worthy for fellowship or if they are bad company (1Tim 1:5NAS). The works of faith in the believer is to believe on Jesus and to love others with an active concern. See 1Jn3:19-23; Jn 15:12; Gal 5:6; 1 Thes4:9; Jn 13:34,35; Jam2:8; 1Jn 2:8; 1Jn 3:14; 1 Jn 4:7,8; 1Jn 4:11,12; 2Jn1:5 and Mt 5:43,44,46. Of course, the standard for Christian love is revealed in 1Cor13. But love grows as does any of the fruits of the Spirit by abiding in the vine or by filling our minds with the Lord's word that lives and abides forever, even in New Jerusalem. Loving (agape) others fulfills the law Rom13:8,10. Faith can be weak or strong depending on who has it. Rom 14:1 "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations." And, Rom 4:19 "He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;"

[Guest shiloh357]

glf,

Most of the Scriptures you provide are ripped from their immediate context and were never meant to be used to address the issue of whether or not a person can lose salvation.

Anyone string a bunch of verses together and make the Bible say whatever they want it to say. Cults do that all of the time. It is not enough to simply present Scripture; you must present it properly without violating contexts. You simply ignore the subject matter many of those verses are addressing and present them here in a sloppy hodge podge of Scripture.

Some of those passages are not even talking about Christians at all, much less someone losing their salvation.

Sadly, the doctrine of osas leads to a lack of concern for our own safety and for others by providing a sense of false security and complacency.

No, you mean Eternal Security. OSAS doesn't exist. It is a made up doctrine by people who don't understand Eternal Security. At any rate, you are wrong. Many great evangelists and missionaries hail from denominations that believe in eternal security. Eric Liddell, Jim Elliott, Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, Billy Graham and others have won many to the Lord and in some cases gave their lives to that end.

Assurance does not lead to complacency. It leads to boldness and action. How can you reach others with the Gospel if you don't even know if you are saved from one day to the next? No one who lives in constant fear of losing their salvation makes any kind of positive impact. You have nothing to offer anyone if you can't even be sure if you are saved? Why would anyone want to live in that fear? Why would they want to be like you, if you can't even demonstrate that you are saved? You are not offering anything that anyone would want.

Even in New Jerusalem, there will be a forbidden fruit that if we do not partake, we are choosing the Lord because without a choice we will be there by compulsion and the Lord wants us to want him. The forbidden fruit is the sin that is neither forgiven in this life nor in the life to come, which I do not lile to even mention.

That is not true. I don't know where you are getting that from, but there will no forbidden fruit in the New Jerusalem.

[enoob57]

You have already replied to these. How about the following;

There is only ONE thing that can give man remission of his sins! There is only ONE thing that can remove the curse that was put upon ALL of mankind by Adam! There is only ONE thing that can justify man and ALLow him the chance at eternal life! And there is only ONE thing that can be considered GRACE, as in the grace that Jesus gave to all of mankind; and it was NOT salvation!

Matt.26

[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb.9

[22] And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

BLOOD is the ONLY thing that can remove the curse of the law!

Now let's read how Jesus blood IS the grace that He gave.....

Rom.3

[24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

So man is JUSTIFIED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation that did it!

Rom.5

[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So man is SAVED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation that did it!

Eph.1

[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

So man is REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation! It was His BLOOD...which was the grace He bestowed upon us!

Col.1

[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So man's SINS are forgiven by the blood of Jesus! It was not salvation!

Salvation did not redeem, justify, or forgave sin or removed the curse of sin!

Only the blood of the lamb could do that! And now that Jesus has shed His blood for our justification and redemption.....do we continue to sin?

.

I partake in the Lord's table and I am very aware of the Blood that was shed in my behalf and the Body that was broken

for the same! So when the word salvation is spoken of NT:4991 soteria (so-tay-ree'-ah); feminine of a derivative of NT:4990 as (properly, abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): KJV - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

N.T. exhausted: Here is where God Speaks of Salvation

Mark 16:8 Luke 1:69 Luke 1:71 Luke 1:77 Luke 19:9 John 4:22 Acts 4:12 Acts 7:25 Acts 13:26 Acts 13:47 Acts 16:17 Acts 27:34

Rom 1:16 Rom 10:1 Rom 10:10 Rom 11:11 Rom 13:11 2 Cor 1:6 2 Cor 6:2 2 Cor 6:2 2 Cor 7:10 Eph 1:13 Phil 1:19 Phil 1:28

Phil 2:12 1 Thess 5:8 1 Thess 5:9 2 Thess 2:13 2 Tim 2:10 2 Tim 3:15 Heb 1:14 Heb 2:3 Heb 2:10 Heb 5:9 Heb 6:9 Heb 9:28

Heb 11:7 1 Peter 1:5 1 Peter 1:9 1 Peter 1:10 1 Peter 2:2 2 Peter 3:15 Jude 3 Rev 7:10 Rev 12:10 Rev 19:1

The perfection you speak of, as sinless, do you possess this in yourself now?

You may come further in your believe in God by understanding this- He loved you when you were all sin and you believed

in His Life, His death, His burial and His resurrection for you-> then you can rest in Him! It is not performance based or else

He would not have needed to do what was done "fulfill the law"... We could have just stayed under the law, but no man can be

perfect in his ways.

If you are a honest man you will know that you fail in the perfection that we see in Him, I do, other brother and sisters here do!

Lying down in this truth of failure do you really want to trust your own merit for entering Through Him into heaven? He will clearly

expect that of you, that He expected of Himself, when He was here... Never once sinning! Surely you don't see this in yourself?

Love, Steven

[glf]

glf,

Most of the Scriptures you provide are ripped from their immediate context and were never meant to be used to address the issue of whether or not a person can lose salvation.

Anyone string a bunch of verses together and make the Bible say whatever they want it to say. Cults do that all of the time. It is not enough to simply present Scripture; you must present it properly without violating contexts. You simply ignore the subject matter many of those verses are addressing and present them here in a sloppy hodge podge of Scripture.

Some of those passages are not even talking about Christians at all, much less someone losing their salvation.

Sadly, the doctrine of osas leads to a lack of concern for our own safety and for others by providing a sense of false security and complacency.

No, you mean Eternal Security. OSAS doesn't exist. It is a made up doctrine by people who don't understand Eternal Security. At any rate, you are wrong. Many great evangelists and missionaries hail from denominations that believe in eternal security. Eric Liddell, Jim Elliott, Annie Armstrong, Lottie Moon, Billy Graham and others have won many to the Lord and in some cases gave their lives to that end.

Assurance does not lead to complacency. It leads to boldness and action. How can you reach others with the Gospel if you don't even know if you are saved from one day to the next? No one who lives in constant fear of losing their salvation makes any kind of positive impact. You have nothing to offer anyone if you can't even be sure if you are saved? Why would anyone want to live in that fear? Why would they want to be like you, if you can't even demonstrate that you are saved? You are not offering anything that anyone would want.

Even in New Jerusalem, there will be a forbidden fruit that if we do not partake, we are choosing the Lord because without a choice we will be there by compulsion and the Lord wants us to want him. The forbidden fruit is the sin that is neither forgiven in this life nor in the life to come, which I do not lile to even mention.

That is not true. I don't know where you are getting that from, but there will no forbidden fruit in the New Jerusalem.

Hey! Shiloh357... Prasie the Lord in Jesus' name, our God and King!

Lets do a passage by passage dialogue then and see what happens... : )

I'll start with the first verse listed. Mt 6:15 "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." And, just like it; Mk 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

Lets look at these two passags this way. 1Jn3:14NAS "We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death." And, 1Jn 4:7,8 "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

1 Cor 13:5NAS Love..."does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered." Love does not take into accout a wrong suffered, so we see that if we love others, we are fulfilling the royal law of Christ. Our ability to forgive grows as our love grows as we abide in the vine just as the other fruits of the Spirit do. So that the Spirit that indwells us is working on our hearts to make our love for others to grow, just as Jesus, our example, loves us and gave himself for us, the just for the unjust.

The forbidden fruit that I was speaking of is found in; Mt 12:30-32 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." This is an unforgiveable sin, so that even in the age to come, it will not be forgiven, ever. This is the forbidden fruit that will be possible to partake of even in New Jerusalem and the age to come. As long as we refrain from it, we will be choosing the Lord! There will be no more faith or hope in this age since we have entered into our redemption and have obtained the promises and are now joined with the Lord being no longer absent while in our mortal bodies. I can't imagine anyone actually doing such a thing in a time when we will know even as we are known and are made to be one with the Lord just as Jesus is one with the Father, but that doesn't mean that its not possible, sadly.

Greg

btw... doctrine is just a word to me that describes one's beliefs, wither they are correct or incorrect. Since we know in part and see the truth through a glass darkly, each of us have incorrect beliefs, sadly. And also sadly, error feels exactly the same as the truth does. but if we abide in the vine our doctrinal accuracy will grow. My proof of this statement; Is 28:9,10 "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little. And again in 2 Tim 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" The Lord uses scripture to teach us knowledge and doctrine. If we are learning more knowledge and doctrine, then we should be changing our beliefs as we grow in the knowledge of the truth that is being illuminated by the Spirit, more and more.

Edited November 2, 2011 by glf

[Bold Believer]

OSAS is not supported by Scripture; but Eternal Security is.

And just how eternal is a name that CAN be removed from the books...the books that will determine your eternal dwelling place?

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At any rate, Eternal Security is predicated on a sincere and genuine profession of faith in Christ. There are many who profess to be Christians, but that is not the same as an authentic profession of faith in Christ. There is a form of Christianity that does not have Christ in it. There are those who participate in the external, visible Christian community, but have never really made a decision about Jesus. They are depending on their church involvement to be enough to save them.

More to the point, where Eternal Security is concerned, it assumes a genuine faith in Christ. I have been a Christian for a long time and I have never seen anyone with an authentic profession of faith who lived in sin. l I have seen a lot of religionists who live in sin and attempt to either rationalize it or they come to church to insincerely ask for forgiveness hoping to get their sins absolved so they can go right back out and live in the same muck and mire of sin they lived in during the previous week. There is no provision for that kind of behavior and insincere repentance.

Eternal Security is not based on what you do. It is based on the faithfulness of God to keep His promises to His children. Eternal Secuirty does not teach that you can sin as much as you want. Those who believ in Eternal Security believe that a true Christian is not out looking for a way to sin. They are not living a sinful lifestyle in open rebellion to God. Rather, while we may stumble at times, it is in a sincere attempt to serve the Lord and He has promised that if we do sin we can come to Him and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Grace does not remove the necessity of holy living; rather it is the basis for living in holiness and godliness:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(Tit 2:11-14)

Indeed a person who is truly saved will bear that out in living a sober life inpurity, holiness and righteousness and they will also live with an eternal perspective in anticipation of return of Christ. Eternal Security simply means that we are secure in that God will not someday rescind the plan of salvation and retract the gift of eternal life and the hope of the resurrection He has promised to us. It is not about being secure inspite of you live, but rather we can live in holiness and godliness in the security that God's promises are sure and our hope is not in vain.

A Christian who possesses an authentic profession of faith in Jesus Christ has nothing to fear about eternity.

WOW!!! You posted alot of stuff.....but did not address the issue!

God tells us that ONLY those whose name is in His books will have eternal life!

God tells us that names CAN be blotted out of His books!

Gos tells us that the ONLY thing that will cause a name to be blotted out is sin!

God tells us that sin is breaking His laws!

God tells us if a name is in His books when they die eternal life is theirs!

God also tells us if the righteous STOP doing that which is right and returns to sinning and dies in his sins he will die the second death!

So just how secure is a name in God's books!

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This has been debated over and over. In the end, people will believe what they want. There is a teaching referred to as antinomianism, which means to be contrary to law. Basically saying, I can do whatever I like because I'm saved. If this is what you think security refers to, then you're wrong. The idea of a God who can't keep me saved is repulsive and non-Biblical as well. If committing sin would get us blotted out of the Book of Life, NONE OF US WOULD GET SAVED. Why do you think Christ had to come down here and save us in the first place? BECAUSE WE CAN'T SAVE OURSELVES THROUGH WORKS WHICH WE HAVE DONE. Kindly stop troubling us with this doctrine of works based salvation.