The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest Butero]

How do you become unborn, we have been birthed by the Father in spirit, with Christin us, is that still a mystery to some. Salvation is the life of another in us, Gal 2:20, salvation is Christ in the believer.

Amazed we still feel like there is something we can do to perfect what our Father has done in us, could be the mind has not been renewed to the new creation.

I don't believe you can do anything to become unborn in reality, because I believe God knew your outcome before you were formed in the womb. At the same time, you don't know your final outcome, because you could start out seemingly serving God, only to fall away at the end. There are a lot of people that will stand before God one day, thinking they are saved, only to be turned away. They will defend their lives by telling God about all the works they did for him. Those people thought they were saved, but they weren't.

Most of the OSAS crowd believes that if you simply go to an alter, accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and get back up and return into sin, you are eternally sealed. I don't believe that. I believe that there are people that will go to an alter and pray a prayer, but they aren't really saved. They aren't really born again. Even the devils believe in Jesus, but they aren't saved.

It really comes down to whether or not a person has true faith. If you read Hebrews, the Bible talks of how a person is saved by faith, and gives numerous examples. James discusses the same people, and says they were saved by works. In Hebrews, it discusses how the children of Israel failed to enter into Canaan because of unbelief. One could just as easily say it was their works that kept them out because they disobeyed God. Both would be true. Faith produces works. If a person really has faith, it will lead to works. In the case of the children of Israel, those who believed, Joshua and Caleb, were granted entrance to Canaan. The others didn't believe, so they couldn't enter in. They died in the wilderness. You can say you believe, but if you live a life in wilful sin, you really don't. Your works expose you as frauds. The true people of faith believe because God gave them the abillity to believe.

[oak]

Ok OSAS and Eternal Security crowd, you have broken me down 50%. How can this be? Well in part it was Shiloh:

If you have no assurance of salvation in your own life, what do have to offer anyone else? How you can you tell people to get saved and tell them that Christ offers salvation while at the same time maintaining the view that you don't really know if you are saved or not? It is a contradictory message. How can you testify of a salvation you don't really have? How can you tell people how wonderful it is, and how much peace you have in your life, if you are fraught with worry over your own salvation???

Firstly, yes I am a “footnote Gospel sharer,” or a Salvation sharer with many qualifications. Even the people that have came up to me, came to me because of my declarations about being known as a Christian and certainly not due to my exterior which is often characterized as being very serious and brooding. As a Christian did I prevent myself from feeling the wonderful joy of Salvation because I was not on my deathbed? Yes! I was looking at the Bible more in terms of deception then the wonderful and unbelievable act of Christ. I think it is appropriate to be cautious but I think I went to the extreme in terms of not being deceived. I acknowledge that Christ fully saves the one’s who truly believe. Oh what warmth, and a good disconnectedness from earthly cares – not even the best Cognac can give you that. Plus, there is no hangover. Right now, to give into this is simply too good to be true.

Secondly, for my holding out and not becoming an OSAS or Eternal Security member is the matter of free will. Yes I acknowledge there is God’s Holy Will – which is right and true – but there is REPENTANCE within our grasp if we consider ourselves in a race and fight. To believe in Christ and feel we have nothing to do with repentance is false. This comes from Christ addressing the seven churches: “I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, you have abandoned the love you had first. Remember therefore from you have fallen; REPENT [emphasis mine] and do the works you did at first.” Rev 2: 4-5 Yes, there are those who will say, this is written to the churches and not individuals. I will quote, “he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit say’s to the churches.” Rev 3:22. It does not say let the churches’ ear hear what the Spirit says. If unconvinced read: Thus say’s the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: ’This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’…stand before me in this house, which is called in my name, and say, We are delivered! – only to go on doing all these abominations. Jer 7:3-10

Either way, whatever God’s Will for us may be, let us re rejoice in Christ for (to borrow from someone else), “this was our finest hour!”

[Michae]

Ok OSAS and Eternal Security crowd, you have broken me down 50%. How can this be? Well in part it was Shiloh:

If you have no assurance of salvation in your own life, what do have to offer anyone else? How you can you tell people to get saved and tell them that Christ offers salvation while at the same time maintaining the view that you don't really know if you are saved or not? It is a contradictory message. How can you testify of a salvation you don't really have? How can you tell people how wonderful it is, and how much peace you have in your life, if you are fraught with worry over your own salvation???

Firstly, yes I am a “footnote Gospel sharer,” or a Salvation sharer with many qualifications. Even the people that have came up to me, came to me because of my declarations about being known as a Christian and certainly not due to my exterior which is often characterized as being very serious and brooding. As a Christian did I prevent myself from feeling the wonderful joy of Salvation because I was not on my deathbed? Yes! I was looking at the Bible more in terms of deception then the wonderful and unbelievable act of Christ. I think it is appropriate to be cautious but I think I went to the extreme in terms of not being deceived. I acknowledge that Christ fully saves the one’s who truly believe. Oh what warmth, and a good disconnectedness from earthly cares – not even the best Cognac can give you that. Plus, there is no hangover. Right now, to give into this is simply too good to be true.

Secondly, for my holding out and not becoming an OSAS or Eternal Security member is the matter of free will. Yes I acknowledge there is God’s Holy Will – which is right and true – but there is REPENTANCE within our grasp if we consider ourselves in a race and fight. To believe in Christ and feel we have nothing to do with repentance is false. This comes from Christ addressing the seven churches: “I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, you have abandoned the love you had first. Remember therefore from you have fallen; REPENT [emphasis mine] and do the works you did at first.” Rev 2: 4-5 Yes, there are those who will say, this is written to the churches and not individuals. I will quote, “he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit say’s to the churches.” Rev 3:22. It does not say let the churches’ ear hear what the Spirit says. If unconvinced read: Thus say’s the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: ’This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’…stand before me in this house, which is called in my name, and say, We are delivered! – only to go on doing all these abominations. Jer 7:3-10

Either way, whatever God’s Will for us may be, let us re rejoice in Christ for (to borrow from someone else), “this was our finest hour!”

All any sinner can do is believe, believer's confess. Granted most of us come to the Lord by confessing our sins but scripture says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved".

[enoob57]

Ok OSAS and Eternal Security crowd, you have broken me down 50%. How can this be? Well in part it was Shiloh:

If you have no assurance of salvation in your own life, what do have to offer anyone else? How you can you tell people to get saved and tell them that Christ offers salvation while at the same time maintaining the view that you don't really know if you are saved or not? It is a contradictory message. How can you testify of a salvation you don't really have? How can you tell people how wonderful it is, and how much peace you have in your life, if you are fraught with worry over your own salvation???

Firstly, yes I am a “footnote Gospel sharer,” or a Salvation sharer with many qualifications. Even the people that have came up to me, came to me because of my declarations about being known as a Christian and certainly not due to my exterior which is often characterized as being very serious and brooding. As a Christian did I prevent myself from feeling the wonderful joy of Salvation because I was not on my deathbed? Yes! I was looking at the Bible more in terms of deception then the wonderful and unbelievable act of Christ. I think it is appropriate to be cautious but I think I went to the extreme in terms of not being deceived. I acknowledge that Christ fully saves the one’s who truly believe. Oh what warmth, and a good disconnectedness from earthly cares – not even the best Cognac can give you that. Plus, there is no hangover. Right now, to give into this is simply too good to be true.

Secondly, for my holding out and not becoming an OSAS or Eternal Security member is the matter of free will. Yes I acknowledge there is God’s Holy Will – which is right and true – but there is REPENTANCE within our grasp if we consider ourselves in a race and fight. To believe in Christ and feel we have nothing to do with repentance is false. This comes from Christ addressing the seven churches: “I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, you have abandoned the love you had first. Remember therefore from you have fallen; REPENT [emphasis mine] and do the works you did at first.” Rev 2: 4-5 Yes, there are those who will say, this is written to the churches and not individuals. I will quote, “he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit say’s to the churches.” Rev 3:22. It does not say let the churches’ ear hear what the Spirit says. If unconvinced read: Thus say’s the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: ’This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’…stand before me in this house, which is called in my name, and say, We are delivered! – only to go on doing all these abominations. Jer 7:3-10

Either way, whatever God’s Will for us may be, let us re rejoice in Christ for (to borrow from someone else), “this was our finest hour!”

All any sinner can do is believe, believer's confess. Granted most of us come to the Lord by confessing our sins but scripture says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved".

By believing in Who Our Lord 'IS' we see who we are not and then the desperate need to die to what we are to be what He provides for us to be... Love, Steven

[Guest shiloh357]

Secondly, for my holding out and not becoming an OSAS or Eternal Security member is the matter of free will. Yes I acknowledge there is God’s Holy Will – which is right and true – but there is REPENTANCE within our grasp if we consider ourselves in a race and fight. To believe in Christ and feel we have nothing to do with repentance is false. This comes from Christ addressing the seven churches: “I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, you have abandoned the love you had first. Remember therefore from you have fallen; REPENT [emphasis mine] and do the works you did at first.” Rev 2: 4-5 Yes, there are those who will say, this is written to the churches and not individuals. I will quote, “he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit say’s to the churches.” Rev 3:22. It does not say let the churches’ ear hear what the Spirit says. If unconvinced read: Thus say’s the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in these deceptive words: ’This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.’…stand before me in this house, which is called in my name, and say, We are delivered! – only to go on doing all these abominations. Jer 7:3-10

Oalk,

It appears that one of the biggest problems I see is in the way you continue to assign values and motives to those who believe in Eternal Security. What I mean is that you seem to work from some ingrained assumption that to believe in Eternal Security means to to not believe in repentance or holy living and that is simply not the case.

Eternal Security is predicated in part on the assumption that you are a genuine believer and that you have a since desire to serve the Lord. A genuine believer isn't going out and looking for a way to sin, and neither do they believe that security removes any need to repent when we sin. Eternal Security smiply means that we can be secure from the standpoint that God is not going to rescind His promises or change His mind about salvation. That is where our security lies.

If a person claims to be saved, but demonstrates no change or no desire to serve the Lord and they continue to live in sin, they need to re-examine the authenticity of their profession of faith.

I think it is important for people to realize that salvation/eternal life is a Person. Jesus IS eternal life. When you are saved from sin, Jesus comes to live within you in the Person of the Holy Spirit and He fulfillis the rightesousness of the law within you (Rom. 8:4). That is important because while anti-Security crowd is worried abuot being good enough to remain saved, they miss the fact that God's standard has nothing to do with being good. God's staandard is righteousness. Unlike other religions where their gods measure their good works agaisnt their bad works, God has no set of scales. God's standard is righteousness and there is nothing we can do that can merit righteousness, no matter how good we are. Righteousness refers to being in "rightstanding" with God and that is something God Himself must supply to us. We cannot achieve it.

I often use my lasagna analogy: Suppose you had the best lasagna in the world. It has won every lasagna context there is. All of the world's most reknown chefs concede that your lasgna is the world's best lasagna. But, you take your lasagna to the state fair and enter it in an applie pie contest. What will happen?? Your lasagna will not be allowed into the contest because they are not judging lasagna; they are judging applie pie and the standards for apple are entirely different than the standards for judging lasagna. In the same way, many people are trying to "good enough" for God and God is not interested in you being "good enough." God's standard is not "good." God's standard is righteousness, which is a totally different from "good." God is not interested in you performing well enough for Him. You cannot possibly do that anyway.

Everything God's Holiness demands, His grace provides. That is hard for many people to accept. There is a form of religious vanity that wants to earn salvation, that wants to be "good enough." But it is futile. Religion says, "do." The Gospel says, "done." The Gospel from the cross says, "it is finished." Jesus has borne everything that can send a man to hell. Jesus has paid the price and fully satisfied God's perfect system of divine justice. He finished the work on the cross and God offers us salvation on that basis, on the basis of Jesus' finished work.

That is why I hate religion down to my absolute core. Religion tells you that to please God you have to look a certain way, dress a certain way, listen to this or that kind of music. Religion tells you that you can't wear this or you have to wear that. Religion is works intensive; It tells you that it is a sin to cut your hair, wear jewelry. Religion comes from a latin word that means to bind, and it does exactly that. Religion ties God's favor to your behavior. The Gospel teaches that God doesn't love you because you're good; He loves you because HE is good. He loves you because He is faithful and because His mercies are new every morning.

It is time that we stop using salvation as a hammer to beat people down in order to make them obedient or to make them live the way we think they should live. It is time we stop trying to use manipulation and intimidation by telling people that their salvation depends on their conforming to specific set of external rules that other people have made up to define what a "good" Christian is supposed to look like. There are no "good" Christians. There are only sinners who have been saved and continue to be saved only by God's grace.

[Guest Butero]

That is why I hate religion down to my absolute core. Religion tells you that to please God you have to look a certain way, dress a certain way, listen to this or that kind of music. Religion tells you that you can't wear this or you have to wear that. Religion is works intensive; It tells you that it is a sin to cut your hair, wear jewelry. Religion comes from a latin word that means to bind, and it does exactly that. Religion ties God's favor to your behavior. The Gospel teaches that God doesn't love you because you're good; He loves you because HE is good. He loves you because He is faithful and because His mercies are new every morning.

It is time that we stop using salvation as a hammer to beat people down in order to make them obedient or to make them live the way we think they should live. It is time we stop trying to use manipulation and intimidation by telling people that their salvation depends on their conforming to specific set of external rules that other people have made up to define what a "good" Christian is supposed to look like. There are no "good" Christians. There are only sinners who have been saved and continue to be saved only by God's grace.

This is actually a separate issue from that of eternal security, but it is an important one. You are picking and choosing the kind of things you don't like ministers to preach on. If we are not to bind people with rules and tell them they should be obedient to them, you can't tell someone not to steal, kill, bear false witness, anything, because those are rules that bind people. Just because you don't agree with certain things people say are wrong, that doesn't mean you are right. Now if you are going to be consistent and say we aren't bound to follow any of God's laws, including those I just mentioned, so be it. I don't agree, but at least I would say you are consistent.

Those who don't believe we should dress a certain way, or listen to secular music, or any other thing you may want to put on a list, believe that based on scripture. You may not agree with their interpretation, but they have as much right to their view as you do to yours. The homosexuals will even claim that we are not under the law, so they are just as saved as those who are straight. If there are no standards, and that is your sincere belief, I hope you found a church to attend that never preaches on sin, because sin is the transgression of the law according to 1 John.

[Michae]

There is no convincing OSAS, most have started there walk not being taught eternal security. It is something you learn as you grow in grace and knowledge, eternal secirity is a manmade phase, eternal life in us is Christ.

[~Clay]

<snip>

When I first joined WB, I got angry with the poor deluded people that believed in eternal security. Over time, I realized that there are various ways two people can read the same scriptures and come to differen't conclusions. If you get mad over disagreements, it won't do any good. They won't change their mind, and you probably won't change your mind. You will get along with others better if you just stand for what you believe in, and accept the fact others won't always agree. Ultimately we all have to stand before God at the judgement. Jesus will ultimately decide our fate. Some who don't believe in eternal security live like the devil. Some who believe in eternal security do that which is right in the sight of God. If you believe eternal security is a lie, don't back down, but don't let it anger you that others think you are wrong. It won't do you or anyone else any good.

Just can't help taking that shot, huh big B?

[enoob57]

It is unfortunate that our understandings are so frayed that issues cannot be properly addressed! What we wear is of the same consideration as homosexuality???? A fibered morality initiated in the beginning of our very created being is substanced in life and not law! A Love that comes down from God 'IS' Christ Jesus and His morality is evident everywhere He went and taught! Note that at His mock trial not one moral issue was brought against Him because of this evident truth! Now Christ in me the hope of glory means what?

Col 1:27-29

27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

NKJV

So the man who practices immorality must be warned that it is not Christ working that in them! Love, Steven

[Guest Butero]

<snip>

When I first joined WB, I got angry with the poor deluded people that believed in eternal security. Over time, I realized that there are various ways two people can read the same scriptures and come to differen't conclusions. If you get mad over disagreements, it won't do any good. They won't change their mind, and you probably won't change your mind. You will get along with others better if you just stand for what you believe in, and accept the fact others won't always agree. Ultimately we all have to stand before God at the judgement. Jesus will ultimately decide our fate. Some who don't believe in eternal security live like the devil. Some who believe in eternal security do that which is right in the sight of God. If you believe eternal security is a lie, don't back down, but don't let it anger you that others think you are wrong. It won't do you or anyone else any good.

Just can't help taking that shot, huh big B?

How was I taking a shot at anyone? I said that was my attitude when I first joined WB, not today. I am saying that I understand your position better than I did, even if I don't hold exactly the same position.