The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[DanL]

Excuse me for coming in on the tail end of this-much debated topic.

Many of you have a much greater Biblical knowledge than I, but I can witness what God has done in my life on the topic:

I know I was saved at a young age. I believe it was a Vacation Bible School and I could not have been more than 9 years old. I clearly felt the presence of Jesus. I know I believed. I was filled with light and warmth and even as a youngster it changed the way I looked at things and lived my life. Yes, I felt born again. Yes, there was a renewing of my mind and spirit.

Later, in my teens, the death of my mother and the lure of drugs drew me into a sinful lifestyle. At one time, I even called myself an "agnostic." I openly stated no one could know for sure God existed.

But, even I was living that sinful lifestyle, the still small voice of the Holy Spirit was there saying, "You know this is wrong."

Eventually, everything came crashing down. I was camped in a tiny tent in South Dakota when a tornado passed over me in the middle of the night. There are no atheists in fox holes and there are no agnostic hippy druggies in pup tents under a tornado at 2:00 AM in Murdo, South Dakota. I prayed that the LORD would save my miserable life. I made promsies about quitting drugs and going to church.

As I drove my motorcycle past the Stuckey's Truck Stop with its missing roof, eastbound on I-90, I thought to myself, "Man, there is no way you're going to keep those promises you made to God."

And I numbed the nagging feeling I had with more drugs.

One day shortly there after, after a night of drinking and drugs and throwing up, I looked in the bathroom mirror and saw a piece of garbage.

I could no longer run from the lies or cover them over with dope.

Within two years of the promises I made in that pup tent, I was sober and attending church.

That was 28 years ago and the LORD has not stopped changing me every day.

So, is my security in Jesus eternal? Absolutely! The Bible says so.

Hebrews 13:5

Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

As far as I can find, God never says "I promise.." in the Bible. Oh, many times His promises are spoken of. Everything God says is true. Everything he says, He will do. He does not have to say, "I promise" because everything he says is most certainly true. There is no need to assure us that this particular statement or intent to act is anymore likely to happen than another. God does everything He says He will do.

Now the hard question: In my witness above, was I saved once and always saved? Or, when I denied God existed with my mouth and my actions were not those of one living in gratitude for salvation, had I given up my salvation? Let's say I had died in that tornado BEFORE I called out for Him to spare my life. Does being saved mean going to heaven when you die? Would I have gone to heaven? I belileve the answer is "yes." Remember, in my heart I knew what I was doing was wrong. Even when I called myself an agnostic, in my heart I still believed. I only claimed to be an agnostic to numb the guilt of a lifestyle I knew was wrong and justify it. It was a lie and my heart knew it.

I will concede this fact: Had I died in that tornado and stood before Jesus, I would have had some esssplianing to doooooo. We are accountable for our actions.

Consider the thief on the cross:

Luke 23: 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

There it is: The thief had lived an ungodly life. But he admitted he was sinner, believed Jesus could save him because of who He was, and confessed Jesus as Lord. And, unlike us, he did it before Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, does this mean we have no free will? That God makes us be saved whether we want to or not?

Not at all. Consider Jonah. God called him to witness to Ninevah. Jonah didn't want to and ran in the opposite direction. Did God pick him up and deposit him in Ninevah? No, God "persuaded" Jonah to do the right thing with three days in the belly of a great fish. (Please, please let's not go down the fish vs. whale debate.) Is being persuasive a negation of free will?

Even David excersized free will with Bathsheba. We are not puppets with God pulling the strings. Adam and Eve proved that.

But, if God has a plan for your life, remember His promises are always true. Prepare to be persuaded.

When I was doing drugs, I thought it was good. I thought it was fun. I believed lies. God dropped the truth right in my lap and, like a wet St. Bernard, there was no denying it. (Okay, not so much a Biblical reference.)

God's omniscience does not negate our free will.

So, why would God allow me to believe the lies of the drug culture? Why would my soul be put at risk? Was my soul ever at risk?

Because, having been there, I am now better equipped to minister to those who are caught in the same lies. Because, having been pulled from the slimy pit, I can help pull others out. Because, what the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good! As for whether my soul was at risk, I do not know. Certainly my soul was ill. Was it ever in danger of hell? Only God can answer that.

And as for whether people who claim to be Christian and engage in non-Christian behavior are saved and back-sliding, being trained to minister, or have thrown their salvation away, I don't know that. Because to know that, I would have to know whether they were truly saved to begin with, and to know that I would have to see inside their hearts and only God knows the heart.

Yes, yes, Jesus says you will know the tree by its fruit and you will know his followers by their love. The world has gotten awfully good at producing wax fruit and artificial love. We can tell the difference, but it took me about a half-century to achieve anywhere near 50% accuracy.

Whatever the case, I know I was not put here to serve myself. I was put here to serve My Lord Jesus Christ and my neighbors. And, because of what He has given us in His Word, I can assure all those who seek the Lord that He will never negate their free will, nor let them slip from His hand.

[Muddycamo]

Wow, thank you for more than you know.

Excuse me for coming in on the tail end of this-much debated topic.

Many of you have a much greater Biblical knowledge than I, but I can witness what God has done in my life on the topic:

I know I was saved at a young age. I believe it was a Vacation Bible School and I could not have been more than 9 years old. I clearly felt the presence of Jesus. I know I believed. I was filled with light and warmth and even as a youngster it changed the way I looked at things and lived my life. Yes, I felt born again. Yes, there was a renewing of my mind and spirit.

Later, in my teens, the death of my mother and the lure of drugs drew me into a sinful lifestyle. At one time, I even called myself an "agnostic." I openly stated no one could know for sure God existed.

But, even I was living that sinful lifestyle, the still small voice of the Holy Spirit was there saying, "You know this is wrong."

Eventually, everything came crashing down. I was camped in a tiny tent in South Dakota when a tornado passed over me in the middle of the night. There are no atheists in fox holes and there are no agnostic hippy druggies in pup tents under a tornado at 2:00 AM in Murdo, South Dakota. I prayed that the LORD would save my miserable life. I made promsies about quitting drugs and going to church.

As I drove my motorcycle past the Stuckey's Truck Stop with its missing roof, eastbound on I-90, I thought to myself, "Man, there is no way you're going to keep those promises you made to God."

And I numbed the nagging feeling I had with more drugs.

One day shortly there after, after a night of drinking and drugs and throwing up, I looked in the bathroom mirror and saw a piece of garbage.

I could no longer run from the lies or cover them over with dope.

Within two years of the promises I made in that pup tent, I was sober and attending church.

That was 28 years ago and the LORD has not stopped changing me every day.

So, is my security in Jesus eternal? Absolutely! The Bible says so.

Hebrews 13:5

Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

As far as I can find, God never says "I promise.." in the Bible. Oh, many times His promises are spoken of. Everything God says is true. Everything he says, He will do. He does not have to say, "I promise" because everything he says is most certainly true. There is no need to assure us that this particular statement or intent to act is anymore likely to happen than another. God does everything He says He will do.

Now the hard question: In my witness above, was I saved once and always saved? Or, when I denied God existed with my mouth and my actions were not those of one living in gratitude for salvation, had I given up my salvation? Let's say I had died in that tornado BEFORE I called out for Him to spare my life. Does being saved mean going to heaven when you die? Would I have gone to heaven? I belileve the answer is "yes." Remember, in my heart I knew what I was doing was wrong. Even when I called myself an agnostic, in my heart I still believed. I only claimed to be an agnostic to numb the guilt of a lifestyle I knew was wrong and justify it. It was a lie and my heart knew it.

I will concede this fact: Had I died in that tornado and stood before Jesus, I would have had some esssplianing to doooooo. We are accountable for our actions.

Consider the thief on the cross:

Luke 23: 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

There it is: The thief had lived an ungodly life. But he admitted he was sinner, believed Jesus could save him because of who He was, and confessed Jesus as Lord. And, unlike us, he did it before Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, does this mean we have no free will? That God makes us be saved whether we want to or not?

Not at all. Consider Jonah. God called him to witness to Ninevah. Jonah didn't want to and ran in the opposite direction. Did God pick him up and deposit him in Ninevah? No, God "persuaded" Jonah to do the right thing with three days in the belly of a great fish. (Please, please let's not go down the fish vs. whale debate.) Is being persuasive a negation of free will?

Even David excersized free will with Bathsheba. We are not puppets with God pulling the strings. Adam and Eve proved that.

But, if God has a plan for your life, remember His promises are always true. Prepare to be persuaded.

When I was doing drugs, I thought it was good. I thought it was fun. I believed lies. God dropped the truth right in my lap and, like a wet St. Bernard, there was no denying it. (Okay, not so much a Biblical reference.)

God's omniscience does not negate our free will.

So, why would God allow me to believe the lies of the drug culture? Why would my soul be put at risk? Was my soul ever at risk?

Because, having been there, I am now better equipped to minister to those who are caught in the same lies. Because, having been pulled from the slimy pit, I can help pull others out. Because, what the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good! As for whether my soul was at risk, I do not know. Certainly my soul was ill. Was it ever in danger of hell? Only God can answer that.

And as for whether people who claim to be Christian and engage in non-Christian behavior are saved and back-sliding, being trained to minister, or have thrown their salvation away, I don't know that. Because to know that, I would have to know whether they were truly saved to begin with, and to know that I would have to see inside their hearts and only God knows the heart.

Yes, yes, Jesus says you will know the tree by its fruit and you will know his followers by their love. The world has gotten awfully good at producing wax fruit and artificial love. We can tell the difference, but it took me about a half-century to achieve anywhere near 50% accuracy.

Whatever the case, I know I was not put here to serve myself. I was put here to serve My Lord Jesus Christ and my neighbors. And, because of what He has given us in His Word, I can assure all those who seek the Lord that He will never negate their free will, nor let them slip from His hand.

[Guest]

Amen~!

[Botz]

Excuse me for coming in on the tail end of this-much debated topic.

Many of you have a much greater Biblical knowledge than I, but I can witness what God has done in my life on the topic:

I know I was saved at a young age. I believe it was a Vacation Bible School and I could not have been more than 9 years old. I clearly felt the presence of Jesus. I know I believed. I was filled with light and warmth and even as a youngster it changed the way I looked at things and lived my life. Yes, I felt born again. Yes, there was a renewing of my mind and spirit.

Later, in my teens, the death of my mother and the lure of drugs drew me into a sinful lifestyle. At one time, I even called myself an "agnostic." I openly stated no one could know for sure God existed.

But, even I was living that sinful lifestyle, the still small voice of the Holy Spirit was there saying, "You know this is wrong."

Eventually, everything came crashing down. I was camped in a tiny tent in South Dakota when a tornado passed over me in the middle of the night. There are no atheists in fox holes and there are no agnostic hippy druggies in pup tents under a tornado at 2:00 AM in Murdo, South Dakota. I prayed that the LORD would save my miserable life. I made promsies about quitting drugs and going to church.

As I drove my motorcycle past the Stuckey's Truck Stop with its missing roof, eastbound on I-90, I thought to myself, "Man, there is no way you're going to keep those promises you made to God."

And I numbed the nagging feeling I had with more drugs.

One day shortly there after, after a night of drinking and drugs and throwing up, I looked in the bathroom mirror and saw a piece of garbage.

I could no longer run from the lies or cover them over with dope.

Within two years of the promises I made in that pup tent, I was sober and attending church.

That was 28 years ago and the LORD has not stopped changing me every day.

So, is my security in Jesus eternal? Absolutely! The Bible says so.

Hebrews 13:5

Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”

As far as I can find, God never says "I promise.." in the Bible. Oh, many times His promises are spoken of. Everything God says is true. Everything he says, He will do. He does not have to say, "I promise" because everything he says is most certainly true. There is no need to assure us that this particular statement or intent to act is anymore likely to happen than another. God does everything He says He will do.

Now the hard question: In my witness above, was I saved once and always saved? Or, when I denied God existed with my mouth and my actions were not those of one living in gratitude for salvation, had I given up my salvation? Let's say I had died in that tornado BEFORE I called out for Him to spare my life. Does being saved mean going to heaven when you die? Would I have gone to heaven? I belileve the answer is "yes." Remember, in my heart I knew what I was doing was wrong. Even when I called myself an agnostic, in my heart I still believed. I only claimed to be an agnostic to numb the guilt of a lifestyle I knew was wrong and justify it. It was a lie and my heart knew it.

I will concede this fact: Had I died in that tornado and stood before Jesus, I would have had some esssplianing to doooooo. We are accountable for our actions.

Consider the thief on the cross:

Luke 23: 40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

There it is: The thief had lived an ungodly life. But he admitted he was sinner, believed Jesus could save him because of who He was, and confessed Jesus as Lord. And, unlike us, he did it before Jesus rose from the dead!

Now, does this mean we have no free will? That God makes us be saved whether we want to or not?

Not at all. Consider Jonah. God called him to witness to Ninevah. Jonah didn't want to and ran in the opposite direction. Did God pick him up and deposit him in Ninevah? No, God "persuaded" Jonah to do the right thing with three days in the belly of a great fish. (Please, please let's not go down the fish vs. whale debate.) Is being persuasive a negation of free will?

Even David excersized free will with Bathsheba. We are not puppets with God pulling the strings. Adam and Eve proved that.

But, if God has a plan for your life, remember His promises are always true. Prepare to be persuaded.

When I was doing drugs, I thought it was good. I thought it was fun. I believed lies. God dropped the truth right in my lap and, like a wet St. Bernard, there was no denying it. (Okay, not so much a Biblical reference.)

God's omniscience does not negate our free will.

So, why would God allow me to believe the lies of the drug culture? Why would my soul be put at risk? Was my soul ever at risk?

Because, having been there, I am now better equipped to minister to those who are caught in the same lies. Because, having been pulled from the slimy pit, I can help pull others out. Because, what the enemy intended for evil, God intended for good! As for whether my soul was at risk, I do not know. Certainly my soul was ill. Was it ever in danger of hell? Only God can answer that.

And as for whether people who claim to be Christian and engage in non-Christian behavior are saved and back-sliding, being trained to minister, or have thrown their salvation away, I don't know that. Because to know that, I would have to know whether they were truly saved to begin with, and to know that I would have to see inside their hearts and only God knows the heart.

Yes, yes, Jesus says you will know the tree by its fruit and you will know his followers by their love. The world has gotten awfully good at producing wax fruit and artificial love. We can tell the difference, but it took me about a half-century to achieve anywhere near 50% accuracy.

Whatever the case, I know I was not put here to serve myself. I was put here to serve My Lord Jesus Christ and my neighbors. And, because of what He has given us in His Word, I can assure all those who seek the Lord that He will never negate their free will, nor let them slip from His hand.

Excellent Dani,

I think that says everything that I was trying to say.

G-d never gives up on us.

If you are a back-slider, have gone far from G-d and hate you life...that can be changed if a person will humble themselves before G-d.

Jesus can breathe on the embers of a weak faith and give those that have turned from Him a sure hope and a destiny.

[Botz]

What about people who testify they were born-again, then went back into the world, ignored the call of G-d on their life but years down the line repented and returned to the L-rd....or even those who were truly born-again, but fell into sin and went far from G-d and died in that condition. Are we to believe that they were not born-again...whereas the testimony of many is that they did indeed know G-d, but followed the desires of the flesh before repenting again? I don't think one can easily dismiss their testimony by saying they weren't saved...even deliberate turning away by born-again Believers is a recognisable phenomenon, because if you conclude they cannot fall into a sinful life-style that by its very actions denies G-d, you take away the freedom of choice that is part of our gift as human-beings. However through all of this, as I understand it, we cannot annul the contract of Salvation because it does not rest in our capabilities but in what G-d declared and what cannot be altered, the chick cannot be made into an egg again.

This is the problem I have with OSAS/ES. The only way to know if a profession of faith was genuine is works (and I might add, the infilling of the Holy Spirit as the seal). So if all of those things are missing, then by which basis do we accept their testimony? This sounds a lot like the seed that fell on shallow soil. Just my thoughts.

I'm not sure there are any easy answers about recognising all others that are saved...that is really G-ds domain not ours as Eleanor pointed out, He alone knows what is in our hearts and who are the Sheep,

but it is usually pretty obvious from the fruit of the Spirit...the passion and love a person has for Jesus, and the abundance of joy.

To us a backslidden Believer may be unrecognisble from anyone in the world, and part of the fearful consequences of turning away from Jesus, is the doubt and uncertainty that comes flooding in...

G-d will keep His promises, but what could have been an effective life full of G-ds grace, becomes ineffective and weighed down with sin...so much so that when death awaits there is a fearfulness

and a terror of the unknown...even that they are not saved. But I have also heard so many testimonies like Dani's, where there came a point in a backsliders life, where they once again took up

with G-d....I find the biblical account of King Mannesseh to be the greatest demonstration of the grace of G-d extended to a person who turned from Him....and not many people have understaken

child sacrifice and idolatry to the extent of this formidable king.

From my understanding, the Bible speaks of works not rooted in faith being 'burnt up'....and some people are going to see virtually everything they did devoured by Holy flames....but it is my understanding

that we will be in awe at the righteousness of G-d, and that he will wipe away every tear (I see some of the tears mentioned in Rev, being tears of regret when we see our works destroyed and realise that they should

have been silver, gold and precious jewels, but I hold this understanding very loosely).

I often think of the words in the Hymn that says..."O love that will not let me go...." That is Jesus' love for us, in whatever state we find ourselves.

[Botz]

What about people who testify they were born-again, then went back into the world, ignored the call of G-d on their life but years down the line repented and returned to the L-rd....or even those who were truly born-again, but fell into sin and went far from G-d and died in that condition.

It's this second group that we are making assumptions about, but only God knows the truth about.

But the Scriptures are clear that those who are born again; i.e., those in whom God has begun a good work, he will complete the work (Php 1:6).

I really think that in the circumstance of a person being saved and turning away from Jesus...perhaps like Demas, those that know him towards the end of his life, might never even know there was a point that he confessed

the L-rd and followed Him....and the person themselves might be facing death with the most fearful apprehension, but that doesn't change G-ds promise.

Some argue that this then gives a person a licence to believe in Jesus and then do whatever they want in life as they have a ticket to Heaven, but I would argue that this very attitude would demonstrate

they do not understand salvation...in fact I think it would be impossible to get into the KoG that way...G-d sees our hearts. It is similar to the person who thinks they will eventually believe Jesus, but

only when they are dying, as they want to live their own life till then, but then do not understand how sin hardens a person, and that TODAY is the DAY of SALVATION if you hear His voice...there is always

an edge of urgency to the Gospel, because who knows what lies around the corner.

Are we to believe that they were not born-again...whereas the testimony of many is that they did indeed know G-d, but followed the desires of the flesh before repenting again? I don't think one can easily dismiss their testimony by saying they weren't saved...even deliberate turning away by born-again Believers is a recognisable phenomenon,

Yes, and Scripture is clear that as long as they are in that state, they have no warrant for believing they are saved.

It does not say they are not saved, only that they have no reason for believing they are.

Only God knows if they are, or not.

Yep, thats what I conclude too Sis.

because if you conclude they cannot fall into a sinful life-style that by its very actions denies G-d, you take away the freedom of choice that is part of our gift as human-beings.

I'm thinking maybe your understanding of freedom of choice could use a little Biblical alteration.

I'm sure there are many areas in which I could use some biblical honing...aren't we all a work in progress till we drop off our perch?

However through all of this, as I understand it, we cannot annul the contract of Salvation because it does not rest in our capabilities but in what G-d declared and what cannot be altered, the chick cannot be made into an egg again.

Which means that if you are born again, you cannot "lose your salvation."

Ergo, if you die in sin, you were not born again, no matter what you believed about the matter.

Not what I had in mind actually....I'm sure multitudes of Believers have died with unrepentant sin in their lives...that does not annul their salvation, the blood still cleanses.

If they had lived longer, perhaps by the grace of G-d they would have dealt with it...but their salvation is never in the balance...that would be Romanish doctrine of sorts,

necessitating the introduction of purgatorial confusion.

[Botz]

Praise the Lord!

Sounds an awful lot like David in Ps 32:1-5 after his sin with Bathsheba.

But you are an example of the difference between backsliding of the regenerated, and the unregenerated.

Somtimes the regenerate backslide and fall into gross sin. But they are acting out of character, and make themselves miserable,

so that they eventually seek and find restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, your lapse seems to you to have been madness.

One more point: eternal security is about God preserving us, not we preserving ourselves.

That is my understanding as well Eleanor.

I think part of the difficulty is expressed through Scriptures that seem to indicate the necessity to persevere in faith in order to maintain our Salvation,

whereas if we understood more clearly that we have been redeemed once and for all through the eternal blood it would cause us to view these difficult

passages through a different lens.

It is a bit like a Believer being blasted with all sorts of scientific arguments that seem to have weight and merit, and yet you know beyond anything else,

that if the science which you can't even fully comprehend is contrary to clear Scripture, then it is the science that needs adjusting not the Scripture....and

within Scripture if one thing appears to contradict another, then it has to be subjected not only to the fuller context, but placed against the heavier revelation

and become subservient to it.

Thus to follow this thought through...if we know we are born again from above having experienced another birth, that we have the seal of the Holy Spirit and

know that our lives are written in the Lambs Book of Life....anything that appears to say otherwise within Scripture is being wrongly understood and open

to misinterpretation because Scripture never comntradicts itself, it only appears that way at times when we don't have the full picture...

Anyway that's how I see things, it probably stems from the legal and Talmudic Jewish way of prioritising conflicting understanding (the kal v'chomer/light and heavy).

[He giveth more grace]

I think we need to be careful because of the Kindergarden members and visitors, no one in mind, but I am afraid that the babes would live in fear of going to hell, and what sin would sent me to hell -- I fear for the babes that they might greatly fear. Like I had a sexually impure thought have I lost my salvation, on and on. Let's be very careful what we are convening to the little ones who can't stand on their own.

[He giveth more grace]

Excuse me for coming in on the tail end of this-much debated topic.

Many of you have a much greater Biblical knowledge than I, but I can witness what God has done in my life on the topic:

I know I was saved at a young age. I believe it was a Vacation Bible School and I could not have been more than 9 years old. I clearly felt the presence of Jesus...

Danl, I have printed your post to read at my convenience, thank you for this personal word of testimony and your experiences, Danl.

[He giveth more grace]

Praise the Lord!

Sounds an awful lot like David in Ps 32:1-5 after his sin with Bathsheba.

But you are an example of the difference between backsliding of the regenerated, and the unregenerated.

Sometimes the regenerate backslide and fall into gross sin. But they are acting out of character, and make themselves miserable,

so that they eventually seek and find restoration to righteousness. In retrospect, your lapse seems to you to have been madness.

When I get off my medication I act in ways unbecoming a Child of God, thank God that he still receives me, yes we as sheep can wander away, but God leaves the 90 and nine and comes to bring me back. He do that even to anti-eternal sercurity Christians.