The Jewish Roots of Christianity

[Guest]

.... Perhaps naming the tribes they way they were named after Shlomo (Solomon)'s time: The Northern Kingdom, the House of EPHRAIM, and the Southern Kingdom, the House of JUDAH....

....Good point. Note that at least one tribe is missing in the 144,000 of Revelation 7....

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

[Guest yod]

Yod,

If I understand you correctly, I ask you to consider that the Olive Tree is not merely natural Israel but Spirit Israel. For if the natural branches do not believe they are cut off. If the Olive Tree were merely physical Israel then how could the natural branches be cut off for any reason? I say this with the hope that all natural branches that have been cut off will be grafted back in for having belief.

Does that not make more sense? And would this not be the only way the Apostle could make sense by saying:

Romans 9:6 (NASB95)

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

b'shalom.

Well, yes, I understand what you're saying but Israel is not like another nation. They were created by a promise of God made to Abraham, and they have a unique purpose in the world whether they are of faith or not. For those who receive much, then much is expected. Rav Shaul speaks quite a lot about this in the book to the Romans. This is another passage he establishes as a foundation before getting to the verse you quoted from chapter 9

Romans 2: ¹⁷ Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; ¹⁸ if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; ¹⁹ if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, ²⁰ an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— ²¹ you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? ²² You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? ²³ You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? ²⁴ As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” ²⁵ Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. ²⁶ So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? ²⁷ The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

²⁸ A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. ²⁹ No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

So evidently Jews were/are expected, of all people, to trust in the Lord because He uniquely created them. They are not being who they were created to be whenever they do not. So the olive tree is theirs and they can be cut off from it by not being who they are created to be. You can say it's "spiritual" if you want but I believe the "spiritual" in manifest in the physical so I don't recognize the difference here either.

They themselves, and the modern world, certainly do make that distinction in many instances; thereby cutting themselves off from the promise made to their father, Abraham, by not trusting. They are still the natural branches though, and can be grafted back into their olive tree quite naturally.

.

[mizzdy]

Have they? Certainly according to many of the organizations in Israel only those with Jewish blood are Gods children and the 'gentiles' have no part in Gods coming world. I also know several in Israel today who have come to the conclusion that many of us gentiles who are keeping His feasts and Sabbaths who are all part of the scattered northern tribe. One man I know has been battling with this notion for a decade or more who has come to the same conclusion and is starting to put together a book on the subject, he is a tour guide in Israel who listens to those he guides who are coming to the conclusion also.

Why people get all upset and freaked out that there still are 'lost tribes' I dont think they are lost at all but have lost who they are and are waking to the idea they are part of Gods whole plan. Obviously we disagree who Israel is and that God scattered most of them in the nations, and I am fully aware of who was in the land at the time of Messiah. Yet if there are rabbis waking up to this that they may have actually gotten it wrong and God is smarter than they are and that those who are coming out of the mainstream churches may indeed be 'Israel' then how can we not also see that? After all the bible is a story of what God is doing to reconcil back to Himself those who have faith, who love Him, who keep His commandments. Isn't it, a plan of redemption, reconciliation and restoration.

It is a rather flimsy rationale to say that because there are Gentiles that enjoy the Sabbath and other festivals that they must be Israel.

Most including you know that I think we are all Israel, we are grafted into the existing body of faithful. My friend tells me that not all are Israel but companion and sojourners that they bring with them which is what think also. According to him and even most every single Messianic rabbi I speak with all point that when He comes again He rejoins the two and all those that come with them, into one, one body called Israel. Theres no way to tell who genetic Israel is at least I dont adhere to all those blood tests and stuff, to me all faithful are His. I am encouraged by the many in Judaism who are coming to acknowledge the Messiah, I am also encouraged by those who are wanting to know more of the feasts and find Him in every single one of them.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest shiloh357]

Most including you know that I think we are all Israel, we are grafted into the existing body of faithful.

Yes but that is not, biblically, what being grafted in means. It refers to our participation in the benefits extended by God to Israel, but it does not mean that Gentiles being grated in become "Israel."

My friend tells me that not all are Israel but companion and sojourners that they bring with them which is what think also. According to him and even most every single Messianic rabbi I speak with all point that when He comes again He rejoins the two and all those that come with them, into one, one body called Israel.

Yeah, but that is not how the Bible relates the rejoining of Israel and Judah. To make your argument you have to pencil in this new idea of Gentiles being Israel into Ezekiel 37 and in doing so it pencils in a meaning to the passage that the author did not intend. The clear exegesis of the two-stick prophecy clearly refers to the rejoining of the northern and southern tribes back into one nation. It is part of the final restoration of the nation of Israel. The joining of the two sticks refers to the rejoining of the physical descendents of Jacob. It has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

[mizzdy]

Yes but that is not, biblically, what being grafted in means. It refers to our participation in the benefits extended by God to Israel, but it does not mean that Gentiles being grated in become "Israel."

If you are grafted into Israel so we can participate in their benefits how exactly does that work? A body within a body that gets the benefits yet is not called by the name of the recipents, does not have to follow anything given to the body but still get the benefits extended to them by God, how does that work?

Where is the gentile gate in the New Jerusalem? where is the gate that allows us to come in as gentiles? Where are the covenantal promises of blessing and curses given to the gentiles? They are not there. By faith we are grafted into the 'commonwealth of Israel' are we not? Abraham is the example, he was 'saved' by faith yet he still walked out Gods commandments, statues and judgments' and as each generation came along God added to the already existing promises didn't He?

Yeah, but that is not how the Bible relates the rejoining of Israel and Judah. To make your argument you have to pencil in this new idea of Gentiles being Israel into Ezekiel 37 and in doing so it pencils in a meaning to the passage that the author did not intend. The clear exegesis of the two-stick prophecy clearly refers to the rejoining of the northern and southern tribes back into one nation. It is part of the final restoration of the nation of Israel. The joining of the two sticks refers to the rejoining of the physical descendents of Jacob. It has nothing to do with the Gentiles.

I do? Where are the gentiles in this restoration? Are we in heaven watching God deal with the Israelites while we enjoy His presence? Are we not the 'sojourners, those who come with them'? Was Yeshua, the apostles including Paul creating a new body or adding to the already existing one? I agree both the nations will be reunited, I understand you believe this has already happened, I do not. When God brought the people out of Egypt they were not 'Jews' they were Israel and companions, Caleb was not an Israelite but was accounted as one because of his faith. This is a picture of what it will be like when He returns, from all the tribes, from all the nations, gentiles included. We cannot be fully under the renewed covenant, the houses are not joined, we are still teaching one another nor do we fully have His commandments written on our hearts. We have the guarantee, the down payment if you will, of that by His coming and by the shedding of His blood but if we are truly in the full convenant and have His Torah written on our hearts then none would be sinning, none would be here teaching and preaching about it either.

Since the northern tribe according to God and some of the prophets show that Israel, the northern kingdom still in exile, lost to who they are, don't you think that perhaps those who do keep the feasts, Sabbaths, God moedim, could be them? Could they be waking up as it was foretold and coming back and returning to Him as well as those gentiles who have joined to them be those companions?

Please would you explain to me where the gentiles fit into the kingdom? what gate do they get to enter other than the ones God assigns to them as He assigned Caleb to Judah? In your way of thinking 'gentiles get the benefits but are not Israel' shows a complete separation from those who will be given a new heart and His Torah is put upon their hearts. What happens to the gentiles if they are not Israel? Since we see Israel (the faithful) restored, reigning with Him during the thousand years, going in and out of the gates of the city, where are the gentiles when that happens?

shalom,

Mizz

[Botz]

Hmmm...the way I understand it from Scripture thus far is that the Root (Rom 11:17) of the Olive Tree that has always sustained Israel is the L-rd Himself, Jesus. Some (Rom 11:17...see the word 'some') of the branches that draw from this Root have been broken off, and Gentiles have been grafted in...they enjoy the benefits of the Root-stock along with the faithful branches that have not been taken away...they did not replace the branches broken off, for these were natural branches (everything that stemmed from Torah and the Prophets was theirs Rom 9:4), but they joined the other branches still in place...Jews and Gentiles now nourished from the same Root....their oneness and unity, expressed in their Saviour...different but the same, like male and female neither is better than the other.(Rom 10:12)

The reason some of the original branches were broken off was due to not exercising faith...but pursuing works (Rom 9:30-33)...if they had truly followed Torah, they would have seen in Messiah the completion of the Law, they would have understood the faith of their fathers...rather than trying to use the Law to establish their own righteousness and nullifying faith. This is where many people inadvertently condemn the Law, without seeing the Law actually brings those that follow it into a broad and fertile place...(Canaan if you like)...It leads to only one place, JESUS or the cross.

In the language and imagery Paul uses here, it strikes me that it is quite precise and follows a well-known horticultural practice....if a branch is broken off, it usually means it is dry and unproductive (dead), and is snapped off near the trunk of the tree....a branch that is grafted in does not take the place of broken branch, in fact it would be impossible....but is grafted in to a fresh and active part of the existing tree....so the idea that the broken off branches are literally replaced, is spurious.

Most Jews recognise their Jewishness, even if they don't follow religious practices...and anti-Semites have certainly recognised Jews down through the centuries...I personally don't subscribe to 'lost tribe' theories or believe that many Gentiles who now find a place in worshipping in a more Jewish manner may mean they are potentially part of these tribes. I have always felt that when the capitivity of all of the tribes, both under the Assyrians and Babylonians, and to some extent with others like the Medes and Persians...relocated and settled a 'mixture' of Jew and Gentile emerged in places like Samaria...some probably went towards Judaism, even those of Gentile origin, others paganism. Nowadays I can't really see a justification for trying to get to the precise root/origin of these things, and it is probably impossible to do with any certainty....what matters is that whether you are Jew or Gentile you know the Jewish Messiah....and if some Gentiles love Jewish worship and teaching, that's great, but trying to look beyond that and establish some Jewish link IMO is fraught with uncertainties and possibly has a divisive element.

I do passionately believe that Believers across the Globe need to reformulate so much of what has been traditionally accepted within Christian Assemblies...and re-establish the complete Jewishness of their faith (not by trying to become Jews...but by recognising, learning about and promoting our foundations, and the debt we owe to the Jewish people.) I believe this is a work of the Spirit in our times, but like so many things of the Spirit is often stubbornly resisted, and like the Jews who clung to their works trying to establish their righteousness....so, many Gentile congregations do not hear the voice of the Spirit....there is very little about us at the moment that will stir a Jewish heart.

Thoughtfully, Botz

[Guest shiloh357]

shiloh357, on 24 January 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Yes but that is not, biblically, what being grafted in means. It refers to our participation in the benefits extended by God to Israel, but it does not mean that Gentiles being grated in become "Israel."

If you are grafted into Israel so we can participate in their benefits how exactly does that work? A body within a body that gets the benefits yet is not called by the name of the recipents, does not have to follow anything given to the body but still get the benefits extended to them by God, how does that work?

First of all, you are mixing analogies. The "olive tree" analogy is one thing. The "body" analogy is another. We are not grafted into a body. The grafting in of a wild olive branch into a cultivated olive tree does not change the identity of either. The ingrafted branch is what it has always been. It simply partcipates in the life of the cultivated tree.

Where is the gentile gate in the New Jerusalem? where is the gate that allows us to come in as gentiles? Where are the covenantal promises of blessing and curses given to the gentiles? They are not there. By faith we are grafted into the 'commonwealth of Israel' are we not? Abraham is the example, he was 'saved' by faith yet he still walked out Gods commandments, statues and judgments' and as each generation came along God added to the already existing promises didn't He?

The problem here is that you are equating being "grafted in" with being saved. We are saved by faith just as Abraham was. Being grafted in is the result of salvation, not salvatoin itself. You are grafted by virtue of having been saved. Paul says that your grafted in position can be terminated if you boast agaist the natural branches, so clearly being grafted in is not referring to salvation; otherwise, Gentile salvation would be conditional upon how the treat the Jewish people. Clearly that was not the point Paul was trying to make.

The Gentiles participate in the blessings extended to Israel, but they are not Israel/Israelites. The Bible NEVER spiritualizes the term "Israel" to refer to Gentiles.

Where are the gentiles in this restoration? Are we in heaven watching God deal with the Israelites while we enjoy His presence? Are we not the 'sojourners, those who come with them'?

This passage from Ezekiel 37 does not pertain to the Gentiles at all. Where are the Gentiles? They are where they have always been, but they are not included in this prophecy. This is about rejoining of the two kingdoms that were split. It is about rejoining of the natural sons of Jacob, the twelve tribes. This not about a joining of Jew and Gentile.

I agree both the nations will be reunited, I understand you believe this has already happened, I do not.

I never said it already happened. It will happen, it is in the process, but it is not yet somethng we can claim has happened.

When God brought the people out of Egypt they were not 'Jews' they were Israel and companions, Caleb was not an Israelite but was accounted as one because of his faith. This is a picture of what it will be like when He returns, from all the tribes, from all the nations, gentiles included.

It appears you are trying force a doctrine from historical narrative. Where does the Word of God explciitly or implicitly point to the story of the Exodus and use it as a prophetic foreshadowing of the future of Israel and the Gentiles?

Since the northern tribe according to God and some of the prophets show that Israel, the northern kingdom still in exile, lost to who they are, don't you think that perhaps those who do keep the feasts, Sabbaths, God moedim, could be them?

No, I think that it simply the case that the mysterious beauty of the festivals of the Lord appeal to some Gentiles and not to others. Just like other cultures have appeal to some people but not others. I am not particularly fond of far eastern cultures, but I know people who are enthralled by them.

Please would you explain to me where the gentiles fit into the kingdom? what gate do they get to enter other than the ones God assigns to them as He assigned Caleb to Judah? In your way of thinking 'gentiles get the benefits but are not Israel' shows a complete separation from those who will be given a new heart and His Torah is put upon their hearts. What happens to the gentiles if they are not Israel?

They simply remain as God intended for them to be. There is no advantage or disadvantage in terms of access to God's blessings and provisions of grace for either the Gentile or the Israelite. No one is being shut out of anything, so on that level it doesn't matter. The problem is that we have so many Gentiles striving to be what God did not intend for them to be. If God wanted you to be an Israelite, He would have made sure you were born an Israelite. It is almost like saying that what God has intended me to be is not satisfactory. It is an assault on his will and plan.

[nebula]

I like how you explained things, Botz!

[Guest yod]

Hmmm...the way I understand it from Scripture thus far is that the Root (Rom 11:17) of the Olive Tree that has always sustained Israel is the L-rd Himself, Jesus. Some (Rom 11:17...see the word 'some') of the branches that draw from this Root have been broken off, and Gentiles have been grafted in...they enjoy the benefits of the Root-stock along with the faithful branches that have not been taken away...they did not replace the branches broken off, for these were natural branches (everything that stemmed from Torah and the Prophets was theirs Rom 9:4), but they joined the other branches still in place...Jews and Gentiles now nourished from the same Root....their oneness and unity, expressed in their Saviour...different but the same, like male and female neither is better than the other.(Rom 10:12)

The reason some of the original branches were broken off was due to not exercising faith...but pursuing works (Rom 9:30-33)...if they had truly followed Torah, they would have seen in Messiah the completion of the Law, they would have understood the faith of their fathers...rather than trying to use the Law to establish their own righteousness and nullifying faith. This is where many people inadvertently condemn the Law, without seeing the Law actually brings those that follow it into a broad and fertile place...(Canaan if you like)...It leads to only one place, JESUS or the cross.

In the language and imagery Paul uses here, it strikes me that it is quite precise and follows a well-known horticultural practice....if a branch is broken off, it usually means it is dry and unproductive (dead), and is snapped off near the trunk of the tree....a branch that is grafted in does not take the place of broken branch, in fact it would be impossible....but is grafted in to a fresh and active part of the existing tree....so the idea that the broken off branches are literally replaced, is spurious.

Most Jews recognise their Jewishness, even if they don't follow religious practices...and anti-Semites have certainly recognised Jews down through the centuries...I personally don't subscribe to 'lost tribe' theories or believe that many Gentiles who now find a place in worshipping in a more Jewish manner may mean they are potentially part of these tribes. I have always felt that when the capitivity of all of the tribes, both under the Assyrians and Babylonians, and to some extent with others like the Medes and Persians...relocated and settled a 'mixture' of Jew and Gentile emerged in places like Samaria...some probably went towards Judaism, even those of Gentile origin, others paganism. Nowadays I can't really see a justification for trying to get to the precise root/origin of these things, and it is probably impossible to do with any certainty....what matters is that whether you are Jew or Gentile you know the Jewish Messiah....and if some Gentiles love Jewish worship and teaching, that's great, but trying to look beyond that and establish some Jewish link IMO is fraught with uncertainties and possibly has a divisive element.

I do passionately believe that Believers across the Globe need to reformulate so much of what has been traditionally accepted within Christian Assemblies...and re-establish the complete Jewishness of their faith (not by trying to become Jews...but by recognising, learning about and promoting our foundations, and the debt we owe to the Jewish people.) I believe this is a work of the Spirit in our times, but like so many things of the Spirit is often stubbornly resisted, and like the Jews who clung to their works trying to establish their righteousness....so, many Gentile congregations do not hear the voice of the Spirit....there is very little about us at the moment that will stir a Jewish heart.

Thoughtfully, Botz

Amen! That was so good..

There are so many jewish people who were lost in assimilation that it must be a terrible thing to know you are jewish but unable to prove, like those who returned with Ezra and Nehemiah. That is a legitimate position and I would never want to diminish God's revealing of their identity.

However that is severely confused by people who think they are jews simply because they have discovered the torah has great meaning still today.

[mizzdy]

The problem here is that you are equating being "grafted in" with being saved. We are saved by faith just as Abraham was. Being grafted in is the result of salvation, not salvatoin itself. You are grafted by virtue of having been saved. Paul says that your grafted in position can be terminated if you boast agaist the natural branches, so clearly being grafted in is not referring to salvation; otherwise, Gentile salvation would be conditional upon how the treat the Jewish people. Clearly that was not the point Paul was trying to make.

No Shiloh that is not my problem as I always state salvation is a gift one in which we do nothing but ask Him into our hearts and accept Him. As we repent we come to understand there are instructions for us to follow, not for salvation, Torah was never for salvation, but because we want to obey our God. We as we are told are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel, thats what scriptures say, not because it 'saves' us but because it is the body of the faithful. Yeshua, Peter, Paul, John all were adding gentiles to what? a brand new way of things? no there was an already existing body, a subset within the existing system. Believing Jews and non-believers alike worshipped together. Thats the whole thing about your take on what I say, you think 'two house' 'saved by legalism' when you read my posts and never once have I ever made that statement. So yes I completely agree we are grafted into Israel by His blood, nothing else will do. Now that we are grafted in, who are we? still gentiles I think not, we become Israel part of the covenant, part of His body.

The Gentiles participate in the blessings extended to Israel, but they are not Israel/Israelites. The Bible NEVER spiritualizes the term "Israel" to refer to Gentiles.

If you are adopted into a family you are now called by that name right? How are you able to participate in those blessing given to Israel and not be Israel? I am not spiritualizing anything. If a person brought into to live in a house, does all the things attached to that house, partakes in the blessings of the house, is called a son of that house are they not called by that name?

This not about a joining of Jew and Gentile.

I agree, it uniting the body of the Messiah. Unbelieving Jews and gentiles have no place in the kingdom do they, so when God promises to bring them back together is He promising to bring unrepentant unbelievers into the kingdom? Or do you think that Gods going to reunite the houses and then physical Israel is the one who must work out it all in the flesh while a gentile church is reaping the rewards of faithfully knowing Him? Theres no gentile church, no rabbinical Judaism, no christianity only the body of Messiah.

It appears you are trying force a doctrine from historical narrative. Where does the Word of God explciitly or implicitly point to the story of the Exodus and use it as a prophetic foreshadowing of the future of Israel and the Gentiles?

Seriously? You do not see Moses as a delivering Gods people, or Joesph as a type of Messiah? You don't see where even Rahab who knew God was so powerful that all were afraid and she wanted to be part of Him? You dont see the exodus as how we are to move out of the worlds systems and put His first? Do you not see that even then Egyptians and probably others who had come there during the famine, leave with Israel, attach themselves to those because they saw the power of YHWH? Those are the prophetic foreshadowing I see, I see how God put these things down for our learning, to show us through out scriptures the types and shadows for us to understand.

No, I think that it simply the case that the mysterious beauty of the festivals of the Lord appeal to some Gentiles and not to others. Just like other cultures have appeal to some people but not others. I am not particularly fond of far eastern cultures, but I know people who are enthralled by them.

I do love the beauty and what His moedim stand for, I can see Messiah written into them, how they are a plan of His salvation. I see where God set them apart for always, olam, for all who call upon His name. I do not know a person who keeps them for salvation or because they are 'enthralled by them'. I want to keep them as a reminder, as a memorial not out of legalism, not out of any other reason than I love God and want to keep them, and it does seem we will be keeping some of them in the millennial reign, at least Sukkot. I really wish people would get over that whole 'legalism' mindset when it comes to feasts and Sabbaths, Yeshua said His ways are not burdensome but light and easy and in the moedim we have freedom also.

If God wanted you to be an Israelite, He would have made sure you were born an Israelite. It is almost like saying that what God has intended me to be is not satisfactory. It is an assault on his will and plan.

God intended the physical descendants to be a light to the world, a nation set apart to show Gods glory and power, we as His body are to be the same thing are we not? God wanted all to come to Him not just Israel but all mankind and when He pulled those out of Egypt He gave all a choice, just as He does us today. It is not an assault upon God to be called an Israelite, nor is it to want to be called whatever He wishes to call us. God is the God of all who choose Him, He just put the title of Israel on those who do, its a title and nothing more. Just as Judah is a title given to one tribe but today they are known as the nation of Israel, there are 11 more tribes all who do not know who they are, we cannot rightly identify Benjamin, or Issachar yet they once were all known, today all the faithful are called Israel.

When He returns we do not here where the angels are going to gather Simon, Ephraim or one of the 12 but all who call upon His name, who have kept the commandments of God and have the testimony of the Messiah, take them to the land of Israel and there we reign with Him. Thing is the gates in the new city/temple will be labelled with those 12 names, which gate do the gentiles go into? I believe they are assigned to one gate or another and perhaps even be refered to that name for whatever reasons, we just dont know for sure do we.

I can sense this is going to go into one of those round and round things you dislike so much I will end my part here, whenever we butt heads its never edifying. I do wish though that you could get it out of your head that I am promoting two house theology as you have said in the past, if I believed that I wouldnt be on this forum.

shalom,

Mizz