joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But are we able to choose at all? P.S. I'm starting to think that God's criterion for deciding who to save is who would choose if they could. A lot of us give our lives to Christ around the time of a personal crisis. But, if God only saves the ones he loves we should just get saved when we're born or out of the blue one day. It makes it look like God is lying to us if he chooses to save us around the time of a personal crisis randomly. So the position that God chooses who gets saved and the position that says everyone gets to choose aren't that different if that's the criterion. (I'm very opposed to the idea that God only loves some people.) Yes, we are able to choose. We have free will. God created time. He is completely outside of it. He knows what will happen to every single one of us from the time we are born to the time we die, and knew all this before we even existed. The fact that God knows all this and exactly what we will do does not negate the fact that we still have the free will to either choose Christ or reject Him. God is not making the choice for us, He simply knows those who will and those who will not. The pre-destination, from God's end, since he knows what our choice will be does not negate our free will. God loves everyone, but belief in Him has to be a personal choice, and not all will choose Him. But what if we're all so depraved that we will never choose God? Of course we have free will, and I hold that it's logically inconsistent to say that God's perfect foreknowledge takes away our free will. I think this idea that we can't choose God is really healthy. Some Christians will go around condemning people with their noses turned up as if they are on a higher plane of existence because they chose God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Then John Calvin should be utterly disregarded. I wonder if he was even born-again since his teaching of Replacement Theology justified blatant anti-semitism.The fruit of his words were murder. Well, I think a lot of people use that theology (in that Prosperity Theology [which I don't hold to] which holds that the promise in Malachi applies to us) today. I'm not saying it's right because a lot of people do; I'm just saying that there are way to many for it to mean that they're all anti-semites. I doubt Calvin knew what he was getting into (but he was definitely wrong). Hey Joe - I am not understanding your response, especially as a response to what Yod stated. What does Propserity Theology have to do with Replacement Theology? Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. A lot of people take this verse to be relevant to modern-day Christians (at least the Gentile ones). It's clearly a promise meant for the Jews, but they think it applies to us too. Some will even say, "We're the Jews." if you tell them that it only applied to them. I'm not sure if a lot of them say that it doesn't apply to the Jews anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of them do. All of this is called Prosperity Theology, and it sounds to me a lot like Replacement Theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 3, 2012 But what if we're all so depraved that we will never choose God? This is why most people have to come to the end of their rope or lower before they will cry out to God. I think this idea that we can't choose God is really healthy. Some Christians will go around condemning people with their noses turned up as if they are on a higher plane of existence because they chose God. Conversely, a Christian who believes "I" was predestined for faith will stick their nose in the air at having been predestined while "you" miserable sinner have not been. No, pride can infect anyone in any way with any excuse, so using the pride argument to support one theology over another isn't a valid one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 A lot of people take this verse to be relevant to modern-day Christians (at least the Gentile ones). It's clearly a promise meant for the Jews, but they think it applies to us too. Some will even say, "We're the Jews." if you tell them that it only applied to them. I'm not sure if a lot of them say that it doesn't apply to the Jews anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of them do. All of this is called Prosperity Theology, and it sounds to me a lot like Replacement Theology. huh? oh you are talking about my pet peeve, where they use Romans 2:29 to say they are spiritually jews. Though it is an egrious interpretational error, it's not really the same thing as saying the jews have been replaced by a religious institution run by men in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 3, 2012 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Then John Calvin should be utterly disregarded. I wonder if he was even born-again since his teaching of Replacement Theology justified blatant anti-semitism.The fruit of his words were murder. Well, I think a lot of people use that theology (in that Prosperity Theology [which I don't hold to] which holds that the promise in Malachi applies to us) today. I'm not saying it's right because a lot of people do; I'm just saying that there are way to many for it to mean that they're all anti-semites. I doubt Calvin knew what he was getting into (but he was definitely wrong). Hey Joe - I am not understanding your response, especially as a response to what Yod stated. What does Propserity Theology have to do with Replacement Theology? Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. A lot of people take this verse to be relevant to modern-day Christians (at least the Gentile ones). It's clearly a promise meant for the Jews, but they think it applies to us too. Some will even say, "We're the Jews." if you tell them that it only applied to them. I'm not sure if a lot of them say that it doesn't apply to the Jews anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of them do. All of this is called Prosperity Theology, and it sounds to me a lot like Replacement Theology. Prosperity Theology and Replacement Theology are separate entities. While the Prosperity Theology may have utilized Replacement Theology in your example, they are still 2 entirely separate entities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But what if we're all so depraved that we will never choose God? This is why most people have to come to the end of their rope or lower before they will cry out to God. I think this idea that we can't choose God is really healthy. Some Christians will go around condemning people with their noses turned up as if they are on a higher plane of existence because they chose God. Conversely, a Christian who believes "I" was predestined for faith will stick their nose in the air at having been predestined while "you" miserable sinner have not been. No, pride can infect anyone in any way with any excuse, so using the pride argument to support one theology over another isn't a valid one. Hmm, I see your point. Perhaps those people would stick their noses in the air no matter what their theological persuasion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But what if we're all so depraved that we will never choose God? This is why most people have to come to the end of their rope or lower before they will cry out to God. But still, if we are TOTALLY (infinitely) depraved no amount of personal trauma will get us to cry out to God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 A lot of people take this verse to be relevant to modern-day Christians (at least the Gentile ones). It's clearly a promise meant for the Jews, but they think it applies to us too. Some will even say, "We're the Jews." if you tell them that it only applied to them. I'm not sure if a lot of them say that it doesn't apply to the Jews anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of them do. All of this is called Prosperity Theology, and it sounds to me a lot like Replacement Theology. :blink huh? oh you are talking about my pet peeve, where they use Romans 2:29 to say they are spiritually jews. Though it is an egrious interpretational error, it's not really the same thing as saying the jews have been replaced by a religious institution run by men in Europe. But don't you see the similarities? All there has to be is the potential for anti-semitism in Prosperity Theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Then John Calvin should be utterly disregarded. I wonder if he was even born-again since his teaching of Replacement Theology justified blatant anti-semitism.The fruit of his words were murder. Well, I think a lot of people use that theology (in that Prosperity Theology [which I don't hold to] which holds that the promise in Malachi applies to us) today. I'm not saying it's right because a lot of people do; I'm just saying that there are way to many for it to mean that they're all anti-semites. I doubt Calvin knew what he was getting into (but he was definitely wrong). Hey Joe - I am not understanding your response, especially as a response to what Yod stated. What does Propserity Theology have to do with Replacement Theology? Malachi 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. A lot of people take this verse to be relevant to modern-day Christians (at least the Gentile ones). It's clearly a promise meant for the Jews, but they think it applies to us too. Some will even say, "We're the Jews." if you tell them that it only applied to them. I'm not sure if a lot of them say that it doesn't apply to the Jews anymore, but I wouldn't be surprised if plenty of them do. All of this is called Prosperity Theology, and it sounds to me a lot like Replacement Theology. Prosperity Theology and Replacement Theology are separate entities. While the Prosperity Theology may have utilized Replacement Theology in your example, they are still 2 entirely separate entities. All there has to be is the potential for anti-semitism in Prosperity Theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Conversely, a Christian who believes "I" was predestined for faith will stick their nose in the air at having been predestined while "you" miserable sinner have not been. No, pride can infect anyone in any way with any excuse, so using the pride argument to support one theology over another isn't a valid one. Hmm, I see your point. Perhaps those people would stick their noses in the air no matter what their theological persuasion? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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