joejkljkl Posted February 1, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2012 I recently heard this verse put forth as support for Calvinism. It seems like this is a pretty shut case because of it. I'm seriously considering becoming a Calvinist because of it! How do people with other views deal with it? Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 1, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 1, 2012 My conclusion to the whole debate is thus: If a person is separated from the Lord, we need to intercede for and plead with that person to come to the Lord. If a person who has been walking with the Lord falls away from the Lord, we need to intercede for and plead with that person to repent and return to the Lord. These are Biblical principles and commands. It is not for us to determine "the called," "the chosen," whatever else or even if there is such a thing. Unless the Lord reveals something specific to you about a specific person, the separation of the wheat from the chaff is His job, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mizzdy Posted February 1, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 173 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 3,911 Content Per Day: 0.66 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 10 Joined: 03/21/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 1, 2012 I recently heard this verse put forth as support for Calvinism. It seems like this is a pretty shut case because of it. I'm seriously considering becoming a Calvinist because of it! How do people with other views deal with it? Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. Hi Joe, Heres another translation of the same verse. Therefore, I want to make it clear to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says, "Yeshua is cursed!" and no one can say, "Yeshua is Lord," except by the Ruach HaKodesh. Its saying that if a person has the Spirit of God they cannot say anything negative about Yeshua. If we have His Spirit dwelling within we are not going to curse God, His Son nor the Spirit, just wouldn't happen. All things come from Him, He sends forth His Spirit to teach, guide and direct our steps and if we are His we are not going to spew out hateful things about Him period. Its my honest assessment that if a person is cursing the Spirit then that person may never had truly given their heart to Him in the first place. I see some of this in the Messianic communities, those who put their faith in Messiah then run straight into Judaism and denounce His deity even supposedly after knowing Him! To me some of these are just playing around, they are also 'wolves in sheeps clothing'. Not sure if that helped you or not. shalom, Mizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 2, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 2, 2012 I recently heard this verse put forth as support for Calvinism. It seems like this is a pretty shut case because of it. I'm seriously considering becoming a Calvinist because of it! How do people with other views deal with it? Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. One who is regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot from the heart pronounce a curse on Jesus, rather he is the only one who can from the heart confess, "Jesus is YHWH," (the Greek word used for "Lord" here). Could you fill out a little more for me how this supports "Calvinism." The implication from this verse is that someone can only do this thing that shows someone is saved: Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. with the help of the Holy Spirit. ONLY with the Holy Spirit's help. Calvinists say that no one can choose to be saved, so this idea lines up with what they say. P.S. At one point before I gave my life to Christ I stopped calling Jesus "Lord" in my prayers. But, after I gave my life to Christ I started to again, without consciously deciding to. This is what I think Romans 10:9 is talking about, with Matthew 15:18 in mind: But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. not some sort of works-based salvation where you have to say those words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted February 2, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 2.00 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The implication from this verse is that someone can only do this thing that shows someone is saved: Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. with the help of the Holy Spirit. ONLY with the Holy Spirit's help. Calvinists say that no one can choose to be saved, so this idea lines up with what they say. Here's my take on salvational faith... You will often hear people say “You have to have faith”, faith to believe, faith to be saved, faith to pray, faith to heal, FAITH. Some Christians, when asked “Are you saved”, will answer “I hope so”, or “I think so”, or “Only God knows”. Often this is because they do not understand what saving FAITH is. So what is saving FAITH? Let me try and explain. FAITH simply put, is the response to Gods calling in which salvation occurs. Without such FAITH, regardless of what God has done there can be no salvation. It comes about through the unity of word and spirit. Paul said it best when he wrote....... 1Co 2:4 “and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 1Co 2:5 “that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God”. FAITH then is not grounded in a human decision to believe, it is God in action. If it was a human decision, salvation would be up to man, not God. But. God reaches out to us, and offers us redemption in Jesus; the initiative is totally God’s. Man only needs to receive what God has done! This reception is the response of FAITH. Complicated? Not really. An example would be that God’s grace is the SOURCE and FAITH the human instrument. Again Paul says it best..... Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, Eph 2:9 “not a result of works, so that no one may boast”. So, salvation originates in God’s grace, it is God’s gift. Salvation is channelled through FAITH, with God’s grace being the primary reality, the foundation of saving FAITH. Ok let’s get serious No one therefore, can make himself believe. It is not a matter of working up to FAITH. It is not a leap in the dark in the hope what the bible says is true and one might be saved. It is also not (and here is what many unbelievers and some Christians don’t understand), a decision based on human reasoning and attempted proof. It has a far more solid basis than rational evidence. One cannot achieve FAITH by reaching out and hoping to secure God’s promise by passionate human effort. (Down this roads lies confusion and legalism – don’t go there, you will get lost). This is where many of us go wrong. Faith is not a human effort to believe, but the inward assurance and conviction that results from God’s presence and action. FAITH is mans response to God’s enabling. Faith is made possible by God, but the FAITH, the believing, is not God’s but mans. Man is fully engaged in the activity of FAITH. You cannot “increase” your FAITH by working at it; you can only open your heart to receive what God has already provided you, and thus grow in faith. And the bible tells us that the FAITH He provides is limitless, it has to be, it is from God, and God is limitless. God offers you limitless FAITH and all you have to do is accept it! Here we need to understand that every one of us is in a different place in our walk of FAITH. FAITH has a beginning as we have seen. We respond to God’s enabling us, which is the first step, but being limitless, FAITH is a journey that has no end point, until we one day rest with Him. It therefore makes sense that we are all at different points of the journey. FAITH essentially has three elements which are Knowledge, Agreement, and Trust. Let’s look at them one at a time. 1 Knowledge FAITH begins in the acceptance of God’s redeeming work in Jesus Christ. It is a matter of hearing the Gospel, understanding the Gospel and then believing. Note I say hearing, not reading (not yet if you are seeking to accept Jesus as your savoir). As Paul wrote to the church in Rome... Rom 10:17 “So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ”. The word of Christ must be spoken (a duty of every believer), heard (until the whole world hears), and understood if FAITH is to eventuate. Peter’s sermon on Pentecost is a good example of proclaiming the word. Peter says, “Men of Israel hear these words” He then tells them in Acts 2:22-36, of the life of Jesus, His death and His resurrection. They must hear about and know about Jesus if they are to come to FAITH and salvation. Thus again, FAITH comes through hearing the true word about Jesus. This does not mean having a wide ranging knowledge (this may come later), but a simple understanding that through Jesus there is salvation. Again it is here that many unbelievers and some Christians fall short. Often they try to understand too much. But what is required is a simple belief, a simple understanding. This simple understanding does not make the believer simple; it opens the door to eternity in Christ. It is really that simple! It is important to stress the knowledge component of FAITH because it is where many people are led astray. And we need to understand that knowledge itself is not sufficient for salvation. (The Pharisees believed this, and Jesus was quick to inform them of their error). Now believers and seekers need to hear this! One may be well informed of the things of God, including His work of redemption in Christ, and still be far from God! As James wrote.... James 2:19 “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!” So knowledge in and of itself has no saving significance. But knowledge is the beginning point of FAITH, because there must be a basic understanding of the gospel message for salvation to occur. If you are seeking Jesus, please understand that you do not have to have “all knowledge’, but rather a simple understanding of Jesus, and the salvation that comes only through Him. 2 Agreement (Assent) FAITH continues with assent to the word of the gospel. It is saying yes to what is proclaimed! Here we must be careful. Assent of FAITH is an acknowledgement that the Word is truth. It is not an acknowledgement of any doctrine of any church. Saving FAITH is not directed to a doctrine or the word of any man, it is solely the assent to Jesus Himself in the Gospel. We also need to understand that the word FAITH occasionally refers to the Gospel itself, and here it is not a saving FAITH that is referred to. For instance in Galatians 1:23 Paul writes of people saying of him – “he who once persecuted us is now preaching the FAITH he once tried to destroy”. In other words Paul, then Saul, had tried to destroy the church and those who believed, which is a different reference to salvation FAITH. 3 Trust Now we come to trust. FAITH begins in knowledge, deepens in assent and is completed in trust. Trust is the critical and final part in saving FAITH. FAITH as trust is complete reliance of God’s promises. It is total confidence in God’s grace through Jesus. FAITH means to believe in. FAITH as trust is the knowledge and acknowledgement of the word of God that everything is from God. It is not therefore solely a trust in the written words of the bible; it is complete trust in Jesus Christ, made known to us by the God inspired, inerrant words of the bible. John tells us in John 1:1 – “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”, and goes on to say in verse 12 – “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name” So FAITH then is a personal commitment that surrenders all to Jesus, which gives up any reliance of self, and looks wholly to Jesus. The climax of faith is a personal relationship with Jesus. It is we in Christ and Christ in us. It is an intimate relationship with Jesus in which we have been told about Him, have agreed with what is written about Him, and have come to trust Him completely. Simply put then, FAITH is complete trust in Jesus for every breath we take, enabled by God, and strengthened by knowledge which grows as we hear, read, study and understand His word, and most importantly, as we enter ever deeper into a personal relationship with Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ears Posted February 2, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 18 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 348 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 39 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/05/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 2, 2012 In some situations it seems that God does have a hand in whether we believe, or listen to him, or not. Such as God hardened Pharoah's heart. If someone has a good explanation I sure would appreciate it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Then John Calvin should be utterly disregarded. I wonder if he was even born-again since his teaching of Replacement Theology justified blatant anti-semitism.The fruit of his words were murder. Well, I think a lot of people use that theology (in that Prosperity Theology [which I don't hold to] which holds that the promise in Malachi applies to us) today. I'm not saying it's right because a lot of people do; I'm just saying that there are way to many for it to mean that they're all anti-semites. I doubt Calvin knew what he was getting into (but he was definitely wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 The pre-destination thing is pretty simply to understand. Some will accept Christ. Some will not. It is not for us to decide who they are, one way or another. Jesus instructed us to love our neighbor. He did not say to only love them if they were "predestined." I've noticed that all Calvinists are the predestined ones. That's ironic. I guess it wouldn't be such a cool doctrine to believe if it had been determined that you were not one of the predestined ones. That would be a big bummer. Predestination only means that God knew, beforehand, who would choose to accept Him and His Son, and who would choose not to. Not that there is a special group with a winning lottery ticket. God is all-knowing. He knew who would come to Him and who would reject Him before they were created. Not a difficult concept. But are we able to choose at all? P.S. I'm starting to think that God's criterion for deciding who to save is who would choose if they could. A lot of us give our lives to Christ around the time of a personal crisis. But, if God only saves the ones he loves we should just get saved when we're born or out of the blue one day. It makes it look like God is lying to us if he chooses to save us around the time of a personal crisis randomly. So the position that God chooses who gets saved and the position that says everyone gets to choose aren't that different if that's the criterion. (I'm very opposed to the idea that God only loves some people.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejkljkl Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 24 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 119 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 3, 2012 Then you will also like Ro 8:15-16 . I really do! It pretty much says right there that there's a slavery in giving your life to Christ, which probably means that that's what is meant in: Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Everyone probably assumes that it is, but I don't roll that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 3, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 3, 2012 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Then John Calvin should be utterly disregarded. I wonder if he was even born-again since his teaching of Replacement Theology justified blatant anti-semitism.The fruit of his words were murder. Well, I think a lot of people use that theology (in that Prosperity Theology [which I don't hold to] which holds that the promise in Malachi applies to us) today. I'm not saying it's right because a lot of people do; I'm just saying that there are way to many for it to mean that they're all anti-semites. I doubt Calvin knew what he was getting into (but he was definitely wrong). Hey Joe - I am not understanding your response, especially as a response to what Yod stated. What does Propserity Theology have to do with Replacement Theology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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