NDE

[~candice~]

What I think is unbiblical is when people say they die, go to heaven (implying they must have gone through judgment) and come back again. This contradicts with Heb 9 that we are all appointed to die once and then the judgment. I'm an NDE sceptic!

What about this

2nd Cor 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.

That's Paul debating with himself about staying here on earth in this physical body to serve the Lord, or being in heaven with the Lord. It has nothing to do with NDE's that I can see... just expressing Paul's longing to be with the Lord.

[~candice~]

What I think is unbiblical is when people say they die, go to heaven (implying they must have gone through judgment) and come back again. This contradicts with Heb 9 that we are all appointed to die once and then the judgment. I'm an NDE sceptic!

The writer of Hebrews is making a general statement. Man is appointed to die once, as a rule, but here are various accounts of people having been brought back from the dead (Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, the widow's son who was raised under the ministry of Elijah, etc.)

Some even believe that Paul had a NDE when he refers to the vision of that "a man" had of the 3rd heaven.

Nothing in Scripture rules out the possibility of someone having a NDE, but I will say that I am a partial skeptic given that an NDE can be easily fabricated. I do believe that there is at least one credible modern example of an NDE and that is Don Piper. He has a book out called 90 minutes in heaven, and of all of the ones with which I am familiar, I think his has the most credibility. There is significant medical and and historical corroboration for his story. His account of experiencing heaven is embedded in a story that can be corroborated by the medical and law enforcement personel that were present at the scene of his fatal accident, as well as others.

As for judgment, I don't think the writer of Hebrews is referring to judgment that occuring immediately upon death. He is simply noting the succession of events. Judgment (at some point) follows death.

I agree the writer of Hebrews is talking about the succession, not implying it is immediate. This doesn't rule out the occasional person who Jesus raises from the dead, but no where are we told these people went to heaven and came back.

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree the writer of Hebrews is talking about the succession, not implying it is immediate. This doesn't rule out the occasional person who Jesus raises from the dead, but no where are we told these people went to heaven and came back.

I did not offer that as evidence of near death experiences where people went to heaven, only that the writer of Hebrews is making a statement that is generally true.

Some scholars believe that Paul is recounting a NDE in II Cor. 12, but he is trying to be humble by not referring to himself in the first person. They believe it is possible that when Paul was stoned, he died and that in that brief period, he was taken to heaven where he saw things he could not relate in human terms. I am not holding that up as absolute truth/fact, just that it is something suggested by Christian scholars.

[~candice~]

I agree the writer of Hebrews is talking about the succession, not implying it is immediate. This doesn't rule out the occasional person who Jesus raises from the dead, but no where are we told these people went to heaven and came back.

I did not offer that as evidence of near death experiences where people went to heaven, only that the writer of Hebrews is making a statement that is generally true.

Some scholars believe that Paul is recounting a NDE in II Cor. 12, but he is trying to be humble by not referring to himself in the first person. They believe it is possible that when Paul was stoned, he died and that in that brief period, he was taken to heaven where he saw things he could not relate in human terms. I am not holding that up as absolute truth/fact, just that it is something suggested by Christian scholars.

I believe it was Paul. I have no reason to suspect he was near death, scripture doesn't really tell us that, just that he was taken to the third heaven. But look at Paul's reaction to it... absolute humility, and not willing to utter what he saw. It looked like it took his breath away. Compare that to modern NDE's where people come back self inflated and just want to brag about it. Something is amiss.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe it was Paul. I have no reason to suspect he was near death, scripture doesn't really tell us that, just that he was taken to the third heaven. But look at Paul's reaction to it... absolute humility, and not willing to utter what he saw. It looked like it took his breath away. Compare that to modern NDE's where people come back self inflated and just want to brag about it. Something is amiss.

That is why I am a partial skeptic. I dismiss most NDE's as hokum, but Don Piper's account is different. He doesn't come up with fantastic sensationalized stories and it was over a decade before he told anyone what had happened. He doesn't brag about it; he uses it as an evangelistic tool.

[coheir]

nde = Near Death Experience, I think.

Nobody can confirm or deny what happens to anyone else, unless the experience goes against the word of God. I know that Christ spoke to me and nobody will change my mind, yet to prove it is impossible.

What comes to mind when I hear or read about nde's is the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). I also think of what Paul said about a man going to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 2:1-6). I have not read in scripture about any experience these people describe.

I know in Gen 7:23

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

the birds fly only in our atmosphere and here it is called heaven.

and

2nd Corin 12;2-4

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

so the third heaven is paradise.

In between Gen 7 heaven and 2nd Cor 12 is outer space could this be the 2nd heaven

cause also have

Deu 10: 14

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

now we see a heaven a of heavens

so could this people have visited paradise ( 3rd heaven) and not Deu 10 ( heaven of heavens )

so what say ye

I am afraid I don't understand your question or challenge?

More of a question. Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven where he heard words not lawful to speak. must be where Gods throne is

Which could match Deu 10: 14 heaven of heavens

Abraham should also be in heaven where Gods throne is. ( 3rd heaven ) however

In luke 16: 22 the poor man went to abrahams bosom. should be heaven (3rd heaven )

The verse says the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham.

I dont understand how the rich man could see into heaven where Gods throne is supose to be from hell.

maybe the NDE's are not going into actual heaven( 3rd heaven )

[coheir]

What I think is unbiblical is when people say they die, go to heaven (implying they must have gone through judgment) and come back again. This contradicts with Heb 9 that we are all appointed to die once and then the judgment. I'm an NDE sceptic!

What about this

2nd Cor 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be PRESENT with the Lord.

That's Paul debating with himself about staying here on earth in this physical body to serve the Lord, or being in heaven with the Lord. It has nothing to do with NDE's that I can see... just expressing Paul's longing to be with the Lord.

The reason I put that verse to you is a lot of people believe if they die before A rapture or before the Lord returns they go straight to heaven to be with the Lord. So if i or you were to die today where do we go to wait on the judgement, before we can enter heaven.

[OneLight]

nde = Near Death Experience, I think.

Nobody can confirm or deny what happens to anyone else, unless the experience goes against the word of God. I know that Christ spoke to me and nobody will change my mind, yet to prove it is impossible.

What comes to mind when I hear or read about nde's is the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). I also think of what Paul said about a man going to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 2:1-6). I have not read in scripture about any experience these people describe.

I know in Gen 7:23

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

the birds fly only in our atmosphere and here it is called heaven.

and

2nd Corin 12;2-4

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

so the third heaven is paradise.

In between Gen 7 heaven and 2nd Cor 12 is outer space could this be the 2nd heaven

cause also have

Deu 10: 14

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

now we see a heaven a of heavens

so could this people have visited paradise ( 3rd heaven) and not Deu 10 ( heaven of heavens )

so what say ye

I am afraid I don't understand your question or challenge?

More of a question. Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven where he heard words not lawful to speak. must be where Gods throne is

Which could match Deu 10: 14 heaven of heavens

Abraham should also be in heaven where Gods throne is. ( 3rd heaven ) however

In luke 16: 22 the poor man went to abrahams bosom. should be heaven (3rd heaven )

The verse says the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham.

I dont understand how the rich man could see into heaven where Gods throne is supose to be from hell.

maybe the NDE's are not going into actual heaven( 3rd heaven )

You are confused a little here, my friend. What Christ spoke of was a story about Lazarus and the Rich Man, like a parable, to explain what death before His resurrection is like. From what I remember, Paradise was called Abraham's Bosom, and Hell was called Hades. The great gulf between could never be crossed. What is to come is the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14), which both death and Hell will be cast into. This means that both hell and Abraham's Bosom are temporal. When Christ died, He enter the center of the earth (Hell and Abraham's Bosom) and preached to those there, leaving with the keys to death and hell (Revelation 1:18), victorious, and salvation in Christ began.

[coheir]

nde = Near Death Experience, I think.

Nobody can confirm or deny what happens to anyone else, unless the experience goes against the word of God. I know that Christ spoke to me and nobody will change my mind, yet to prove it is impossible.

What comes to mind when I hear or read about nde's is the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). I also think of what Paul said about a man going to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 2:1-6). I have not read in scripture about any experience these people describe.

I know in Gen 7:23

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

the birds fly only in our atmosphere and here it is called heaven.

and

2nd Corin 12;2-4

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

so the third heaven is paradise.

In between Gen 7 heaven and 2nd Cor 12 is outer space could this be the 2nd heaven

cause also have

Deu 10: 14

Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

now we see a heaven a of heavens

so could this people have visited paradise ( 3rd heaven) and not Deu 10 ( heaven of heavens )

so what say ye

I am afraid I don't understand your question or challenge?

More of a question. Paul was caught up to the 3rd heaven where he heard words not lawful to speak. must be where Gods throne is

Which could match Deu 10: 14 heaven of heavens

Abraham should also be in heaven where Gods throne is. ( 3rd heaven ) however

In luke 16: 22 the poor man went to abrahams bosom. should be heaven (3rd heaven )

The verse says the rich man saw Lazarus and Abraham.

I dont understand how the rich man could see into heaven where Gods throne is supose to be from hell.

maybe the NDE's are not going into actual heaven( 3rd heaven )

You are confused a little here, my friend. What Christ spoke of was a story about Lazarus and the Rich Man, like a parable, to explain what death before His resurrection is like. From what I remember, Paradise was called Abraham's Bosom, and Hell was called Hades. The great gulf between could never be crossed. What is to come is the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14), which both death and Hell will be cast into. This means that both hell and Abraham's Bosom are temporal. When Christ died, He enter the center of the earth (Hell and Abraham's Bosom) and preached to those there, leaving with the keys to death and hell (Revelation 1:18), victorious, and salvation in Christ began.

You are right im confused in this area. I thank you for helping me get on track you have explained it very well and it makes more since. thats the main reason I am hear to sort out my confusion on several things in the Bible. thanks you one light