jasoncran Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 it doesnt matter if the jew the whole reason the trib is to be as the jews are the ones to witness to the world. oddly so you dont think that the lord will come in your lifetime. i have read this mans book and it was given to me by a godly man as i asked him how do i defend the futurist position and yet it doesnt do that well. interesting points but i strongly disagree. it was my forage into looking into ancient and modern judaism that led me to conclude that futurism for the most part is off. I believe it is entirely possible that the Lord will take His Bride in my lifetime. The whole reason for the Tribulation is not for the Jews to be a witness to the world. It is for the Lord to reveal to them once again who Messiah is, and to pour down judgment upon the Earth. I have no idea what this newfangled term,'futurism' is, but believing what God says about the times ahead doesn't merit a moniker. its a common term to describe what is taugh today by most of the churches. the world already knows who the messiah is and well why then isnt an land outside of rome mentioned and all the symbols and beasts saw by john look close to what daniel says? and in daniel they are all named but one. and the last is id late by historical events that fit what the last beast did. the eu is dead and well heres why. the modern economic crisis and if theres an aod . i should then look for some jewish revolt? the biggest problem for the tribbers is how they have to squirm around the idea of the temple being holy again. if its profaned again then it has to be holy! and what does matter to us if a man is worshipped by the jews? the aod spoken of by daniel was seen first by the jews in the days of antiochus and then when nero ordered the fall of jerusalem. No, the world doesn't already know who the Messiah is, and the Jew has for the last 2000 years denied Him. In the Tribulation, God will be focused on them, and they will know in no uncertain terms, who their Messiah is, by the ministrations of the 144,000 and by the signs and wonders of the two prophets. Preterism misplaces actual fulfillment of many prophecies, and cuts off so much in the way of prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet, and that includes the abomination of desolation. You really must shake off this false teaching. lol. that was already done. to whom does the book of james adress? JEWS! i didnt believe this until recently, why then does peter compare the final judgement of all man to the flood and not isreal?why does it say that we are to be ready and alert and looking for the the promise of a new heaven and earth? what is the modern aod? and when did god declare the third temple of a bunch of anti-christ jews holy? just because the jews do declare the temple holy doesnt mean god does and when the temple was in pauls day it was declared holy the the lord as it was dedicated to him ere the time of christs birth. but when the crucifixication occured what happened? it was declared null and avoid so the aod then for the jews. a good reading of josephus will show that signs and wonders occured ere ad 70. that said the founders of americas faith were heretics in that they think as i do? strong words considering how most american and western christians would pale to those men of faith. i can pull up their quotes and how often said tribbers quote their words and say america was founding on that concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Again, we're way off track. What does SCRIPTURE say about the purpose of the rapture? It is to change the bodies of those believers who have not died to glorified bodies. (I Cor 15) It isn't to rescue the Church, the Church is rescued by God with fire from heaven as she is surrounded by her enemy Magog (Rev 20). It's not to make Israel jealous, salvation coming to the Gentiles does that. As for how God deals with the Jews? THE SAME AS HE DEALS WITH ANY OTHER UNBELIEVING PEOPLE GROUP. He sends them apostles (missionaries if the other term scares you) and preaches to them from the Scriptures with prophets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) In the Rapture (harpozo), the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is coming for His Bride the Church, NT Believers (without spot or wrinkle). And in doing so, He takes them to His Fathers House, which is in Heaven. He is going there to prepare a place for us. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ is coming as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, to reclaim His Earth... and step up His Kingdom here on Earth (Davidic Kingdom). In Christ Montana Marv Edited March 28, 2012 by Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldust59 Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 108 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 989 Content Per Day: 0.20 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 6 Joined: 01/08/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/13/1959 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Again, we're way off track. What does SCRIPTURE say about the purpose of the rapture? It is to change the bodies of those believers who have not died to glorified bodies. (I Cor 15) It isn't to rescue the Church, the Church is rescued by God with fire from heaven as she is surrounded by her enemy Magog (Rev 20). It's not to make Israel jealous, salvation coming to the Gentiles does that. As for how God deals with the Jews? THE SAME AS HE DEALS WITH ANY OTHER UNBELIEVING PEOPLE GROUP. He sends them apostles (missionaries if the other term scares you) and preaches to them from the Scriptures with prophets. I agree about the purpose of the "rapture" you state here. IMO, the teachings of today on this topic do not reflect what God intended us to see. Hidden within this false concept of a rapture is a separation of the 'church' & Israel. We cannot be separate from Israel if we are the born again seed of Abraham. We are grafted into Israel. Who is the Lord referring to when He says "he that comes in the name of the Lord"? Matthew 23:39~For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till you say,"Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord". I believe He is referring to us, the sons of God, & that we will be His instrument in the restoration of Israel to the Messiah.They will see Him in us first. I also think that we cannot fulfill this purpose til we 'grow up' in Him. The world is waiting on the sons of God to be revealed & we need to grow up & quit squabbling over doctrines of men & get about the Father's business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 In the Rapture (harpozo), the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is coming for His Bride the Church, NT Believers (without spot or wrinkle). And in doing so, He takes them to His Fathers House, which is in Heaven. He is going there to prepare a place for us. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ is coming as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, to reclaim His Earth... and step up His Kingdom here on Earth (Davidic Kingdom). In Christ Montana Marv Well Marv, let's look a couple of Scriptures and then you tell me if you still think you're correct brother. Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband It is AFTER the New Heaven and New Earth are revealed that the Bride comes down from God out of heaven. How then can you say that this event occurs over 1000 years BEFORE? Both Eleanor and I (and others as well) have established in other threads that the harpazo/allasso occur on the Last Day. Jesus HIMSELF states that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day, and that he doesn't desire that God remove us from the world (John 6 and John 17). What is so significant about Rev 21:2 is that the Bride IS IN HEAVEN at the point she is revealed. According to pre-millennialism, the Bride has been on the earth for 1000 years in resurrected bodies received at the Second Coming. According to SCRIPTURE, she's in Heaven with God and revealed on the Last Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 lol. that was already done. to whom does the book of james adress? JEWS! Many portions of the NT address the Jews. So? i didnt believe this until recently, why then does peter compare the final judgement of all man to the flood and not isreal?why does it say that we are to be ready and alert and looking for the the promise of a new heaven and earth? what is the modern aod? and when did god declare the third temple of a bunch of anti-christ jews holy? just because the jews do declare the temple holy doesnt mean god does and when the temple was in pauls day it was declared holy the the lord as it was dedicated to him ere the time of christs birth. but when the crucifixication occured what happened? it was declared null and avoid so the aod then for the jews. a good reading of josephus will show that signs and wonders occured ere ad 70. If your switch to preterism is only recent, what and who brought that about? A correction is in order and I believe you can effect that easily. Why wouldn't a comparison be made to the flood? Why wouldn't we be told to be on alert...aren't you? Jesus is coming! Why question the aod? It has yet to be revealed! When God reverts his attention to the Jew, as He did in the OT (it will be a time for Israel to revisit the OT era), there will be a return to the sacrificial system. The temple will figure prominently and there will be a holy place. Don't take everything Josephus has said as 'gospel'. If there were as many signs and wonders as they say there were, it would have been more solidly recorded. Jesus has not come. We are not living in the Millennium. That said the founders of americas faith were heretics in that they think as i do? strong words considering how most american and western christians would pale to those men of faith. i can pull up their quotes and how often said tribbers quote their words and say america was founding on that concept. I have no idea why you would suggest that the founders of your nation were heretics. America nothing to do with this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 In the Rapture (harpozo), the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is coming for His Bride the Church, NT Believers (without spot or wrinkle). And in doing so, He takes them to His Fathers House, which is in Heaven. He is going there to prepare a place for us. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ is coming as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, to reclaim His Earth... and step up His Kingdom here on Earth (Davidic Kingdom). In Christ Montana Marv Well Marv, let's look a couple of Scriptures and then you tell me if you still think you're correct brother. Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband It is AFTER the New Heaven and New Earth are revealed that the Bride comes down from God out of heaven. How then can you say that this event occurs over 1000 years BEFORE? Both Eleanor and I (and others as well) have established in other threads that the harpazo/allasso occur on the Last Day. Jesus HIMSELF states that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day, and that he doesn't desire that God remove us from the world (John 6 and John 17). What is so significant about Rev 21:2 is that the Bride IS IN HEAVEN at the point she is revealed. According to pre-millennialism, the Bride has been on the earth for 1000 years in resurrected bodies received at the Second Coming. According to SCRIPTURE, she's in Heaven with God and revealed on the Last Day. The scripture refers to the New Jerusalem, the city, beautiful as a bride---not the Bride herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 Again, we're way off track. What does SCRIPTURE say about the purpose of the rapture? It is to change the bodies of those believers who have not died to glorified bodies. (I Cor 15) It isn't to rescue the Church, the Church is rescued by God with fire from heaven as she is surrounded by her enemy Magog (Rev 20). It's not to make Israel jealous, salvation coming to the Gentiles does that. As for how God deals with the Jews? THE SAME AS HE DEALS WITH ANY OTHER UNBELIEVING PEOPLE GROUP. He sends them apostles (missionaries if the other term scares you) and preaches to them from the Scriptures with prophets. The rapture is not mentioned in the text to which you refer--1Co 15:52--on the transformation to our glorified bodies. Scripture does not say the rapture is the transformation to our glorified bodies. Only because the term is not used. The allasso (change) occurs at the same time as the harpazo; one may well be the effect of the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 In the Rapture (harpozo), the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is coming for His Bride the Church, NT Believers (without spot or wrinkle). And in doing so, He takes them to His Fathers House, which is in Heaven. He is going there to prepare a place for us. At the Second Coming Jesus Christ is coming as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, to reclaim His Earth... and step up His Kingdom here on Earth (Davidic Kingdom). In Christ Montana Marv Well Marv, let's look a couple of Scriptures and then you tell me if you still think you're correct brother. Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband It is AFTER the New Heaven and New Earth are revealed that the Bride comes down from God out of heaven. How then can you say that this event occurs over 1000 years BEFORE? Both Eleanor and I (and others as well) have established in other threads that the harpazo/allasso occur on the Last Day. Jesus HIMSELF states that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day, and that he doesn't desire that God remove us from the world (John 6 and John 17). What is so significant about Rev 21:2 is that the Bride IS IN HEAVEN at the point she is revealed. According to pre-millennialism, the Bride has been on the earth for 1000 years in resurrected bodies received at the Second Coming. According to SCRIPTURE, she's in Heaven with God and revealed on the Last Day. The scripture refers to the New Jerusalem, the city, beautiful as a bride---not the Bride herself. "the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared (dressed) as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." The New Jerusalem and the Bride in Revelation 21 ARE THE SAME. She is the Church, the city set on a hill, New Jerusalem which is our mother. Revelation elsewhere states that the righteous deeds of the saints are white linen, (the most common attire of a bride). That was a good try Marv, but Scripture doesn't appear to support your assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted March 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted March 28, 2012 "the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared (dressed) as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." The City of God itself will come down, with the Father, to live among us, as we will already be here having ruled with Christ for 1000 years. It is a most beautiful city as John has testified. The city isn't the Bride. We are the Bride. "Prepared AS A BRIDE" is not "THE BRIDE PREPARED". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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