The Purpose of the "Rapture"

[Montana Marv]

In the Rapture (harpozo), the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is coming for His Bride the Church, NT Believers (without spot or wrinkle). And in doing so, He takes them to His Fathers House, which is in Heaven. He is going there to prepare a place for us.

At the Second Coming Jesus Christ is coming as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, to reclaim His Earth... and step up His Kingdom here on Earth (Davidic Kingdom).

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well Marv, let's look a couple of Scriptures and then you tell me if you still think you're correct brother.

Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Sorry, but this is Post Mill., Zech 9:10 - He will proclaim peace to the nations, His rule will extend from sea to sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

Sorry, but this is a comparison, (similar to, like unto) a Bride.

It is AFTER the New Heaven and New Earth are revealed that the Bride comes down from God out of heaven. How then can you say that this event occurs over 1000 years BEFORE? Both Eleanor and I (and others as well) have established in other threads that the harpazo/allasso occur on the Last Day. Jesus HIMSELF states that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day, and that he doesn't desire that God remove us from the world (John 6 and John 17).

What is so significant about Rev 21:2 is that the Bride IS IN HEAVEN at the point she is revealed. According to pre-millennialism, the Bride has been on the earth for 1000 years in resurrected bodies received at the Second Coming. According to SCRIPTURE, she's in Heaven with God and revealed on the Last Day.

Bold

True, the Bride will rule with Christ

The Bride is taken up at an unknown time, No warning. Matt 25:10 - The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. v13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or hour. (This is all about the Bride being taken away by the Bridegroom. Then going up into Heaven) Christs reign on earth is later.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Floatingaxe]

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"the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared (dressed) as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

The City of God itself will come down, with the Father, to live among us, as we will already be here having ruled with Christ for 1000 years. It is a most beautiful city as John has testified. The city isn't the Bride. We are the Bride.

"Prepared AS A BRIDE" is not "THE BRIDE PREPARED".

Yes it is.

The City of God is the people of God (Rev 21:22-27)

. . .is the kingdom of God (Lk 17:21)

. . .is the church (1Co 12:27-28; Eph 1:22-23; Col 1:24)

. . .is the Bride of Christ (Eph 5:31-32).

So for whom else is the terminology for the Bride of the Lamb used?

"(NT Christians) have come to the. . .heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God."

"For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready."

"I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, prepared as a bride."

You're dividing what the Word of God has joined, the new Jerusalem, which is the Bride of Christ.

Somehow, I think you miss the metaphorical aspect of 'as a bride'. The actual CITY comes down, so beautiful, and glorious as described in detail by John, an eyewitness and an actual measurer of the city. It is not THE Bride, but is arrayed AS A BRIDE.

[jasoncran]

lol. that was already done. to whom does the book of james adress? JEWS!

Many portions of the NT address the Jews. So?

i didnt believe this until recently, why then does peter compare the final judgement of all man to the flood and not isreal?why does it say that we are to be ready and alert and looking for the the promise of a new heaven and earth? what is the modern aod? and when did god declare the third temple of a bunch of anti-christ jews holy?

just because the jews do declare the temple holy doesnt mean god does and when the temple was in pauls day it was declared holy the the lord as it was dedicated to him ere the time of christs birth. but when the crucifixication occured what happened? it was declared null and avoid so the aod then for the jews. a good reading of josephus will show that signs and wonders occured ere ad 70.

If your switch to preterism is only recent, what and who brought that about? A correction is in order and I believe you can effect that easily.

Why wouldn't a comparison be made to the flood? Why wouldn't we be told to be on alert...aren't you? Jesus is coming! Why question the aod? It has yet to be revealed! When God reverts his attention to the Jew, as He did in the OT (it will be a time for Israel to revisit the OT era), there will be a return to the sacrificial system. The temple will figure prominently and there will be a holy place.

Don't take everything Josephus has said as 'gospel'. If there were as many signs and wonders as they say there were, it would have been more solidly recorded. Jesus has not come. We are not living in the Millennium.

That said the founders of americas faith were heretics in that they think as i do? strong words considering how most american and western christians would pale to those men of faith. i can pull up their quotes and how often said tribbers quote their words and say america was founding on that concept.

I have no idea why you would suggest that the founders of your nation were heretics. America nothing to do with this discussion.

because up to the time of two men in the late mid 1800s this thought of yours didnt exist. the puritans beleive as i do.

so annias while dead and not raised for his judgement will see the coming of the lord?

so is forever forever in the bible? if so then you position on the city coming down in that large size( bigger then america) would mean death to many animals and so forth and also the reference to the no need for sun and the moon. also contradicts that in the millenium supported verses where isreal does the shabat and feasts forever!

that said its when i asked for a defense from pastors at times( couldnt help) or that one did and gave me a book and that is the one i mentioned.

so the idea of that the gates of jerusalems temple wasnt a sign? or that a star shone for months on the city and pointed the way to jerusalem for the roman armies?

then if the lord only rescues isreal what makes you all think that the sinners who survive all the horror will repent? the ones that satan decieves they wont.

so all thes men who taught prophecy up till the 1800s were dunces and didnt really know history or study them?

[Floatingaxe]

because up to the time of two men in the late mid 1800s this thought of yours didnt exist. the puritans beleive as i do.

This is a fable.

so annias while dead and not raised for his judgement will see the coming of the lord?

If he was a bona fide believer, he will be raised at the coming of the Bridegroom.

so is forever forever in the bible? if so then you position on the city coming down in that large size( bigger then america) would mean death to many animals and so forth and also the reference to the no need for sun and the moon. also contradicts that in the millenium supported verses where isreal does the shabat and feasts forever!

The New Jerusalem is not bigger than the USA.

Any deaths that will be incurred by its arrival will be nothing compared to the devastation that the world would have undergone in the years previous. The fact that we will need no sun or moon is not debatable---it is a fact.

that said its when i asked for a defense from pastors at times( couldnt help) or that one did and gave me a book and that is the one i mentioned.

so the idea of that the gates of jerusalems temple wasnt a sign? or that a star shone for months on the city and pointed the way to jerusalem for the roman armies?

Are these things verifiable? Are they supported by scripture?

then if the lord only rescues isreal what makes you all think that the sinners who survive all the horror will repent? the ones that satan decieves they wont.

The Lord God has plans for Israel, and Gentiles are not a part of them. Hence the removal of the Church. The Bible tells us that the wicked of the world refuse to repent, given many torments. However, we will look forward to Israel being saved, as is promised.

so all thes men who taught prophecy up till the 1800s were dunces and didn't really know history or study them?

I have no idea what men you are talking about, but if they were teaching preterism, they were speaking carnally.

[jasoncran]

a

because up to the time of two men in the late mid 1800s this thought of yours didnt exist. the puritans beleive as i do.

This is a fable.

so annias while dead and not raised for his judgement will see the coming of the lord?

If he was a bona fide believer, he will be raised at the coming of the Bridegroom.

so is forever forever in the bible? if so then you position on the city coming down in that large size( bigger then america) would mean death to many animals and so forth and also the reference to the no need for sun and the moon. also contradicts that in the millenium supported verses where isreal does the shabat and feasts forever!

The New Jerusalem is not bigger than the USA.

Any deaths that will be incurred by its arrival will be nothing compared to the devastation that the world would have undergone in the years previous. The fact that we will need no sun or moon is not debatable---it is a fact.

that said its when i asked for a defense from pastors at times( couldnt help) or that one did and gave me a book and that is the one i mentioned.

so the idea of that the gates of jerusalems temple wasnt a sign? or that a star shone for months on the city and pointed the way to jerusalem for the roman armies?

Are these things verifiable? Are they supported by scripture?

then if the lord only rescues isreal what makes you all think that the sinners who survive all the horror will repent? the ones that satan decieves they wont.

The Lord God has plans for Israel, and Gentiles are not a part of them. Hence the removal of the Church. The Bible tells us that the wicked of the world refuse to repent, given many torments. However, we will look forward to Israel being saved, as is promised.

so all thes men who taught prophecy up till the 1800s were dunces and didn't really know history or study them?

I have no idea what men you are talking about, but if they were teaching preterism, they were speaking carnally.

a fable find me one commentary that says that and lol what am i?

a christian or a jew to you.

so when the jews believe what are they part of? the church or isreal if isreal then we arent going to see each other in heaven. lovely you guys do this all time and dont see it.

and no annias didnt and wouldnt repent as he was a pharisee the one who ordered his death and jesus told him that he would see his coming with his angels. that means he would be alive at that judgement but where is annias? you do know that annias was the very vessel that god used to crucify the lord( one of three)

that said. so what will be such a reason for the jews to believe? the gospel isnt good enough? who will teach them? some angel or a church and how will they know what happened if no one knows what happened? all the church is gone and so will read the word to them? the 144k thos are in hevean and gathered from the earth. so it can be them? and angel? but when that happens its only once and one day.

[jasoncran]

its sad really, im told by you to read the word and when i do then you blast me as blind.

funny my church leadership are impressed by my knowledge and even some pastors say i know more then many pastors. go figure and we wondery why the church is so weak and feeble. im not even all that. im called to be a leader or teacher.

is 66

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

if the new moon in the new earth and sun and moon doesnt exist after the millenium then what does this mean?

when does the new heavens and new earth happen? after the millenium or before?

[goldust59]

Again, we're way off track. What does SCRIPTURE say about the purpose of the rapture? It is to change the bodies of those believers who have not died to glorified bodies.

I agree about the purpose of the "rapture" you state here. IMO, the teachings of today on this topic do not reflect what God intended us to see. Hidden within this false concept of a rapture is a separation of the 'church' & Israel.

What do you see as false about:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command (Come forth!), and the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise (from their graves) first. After that, we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

What about this Scripture stating the rapture is false?

1Co 15:52 is not about the rapture. It is about the transformation to our glorified bodies. That is not the rapture.

Hi Eleanor,

I see nothing false in the scripture you quoted. I consider all scripture to be true, I just don't think we yet see the full truths to be found there. But I also believe that understanding is constantly being opened as we study with the Holy Spirit's assistance. We just have to be open to what He says & not rely on our own views.

When do you see us being changed to our glorified bodies? Do you not connect that to the catching up? I have always seen these as speaking of same thing. Please explain what you see.

[Floatingaxe]

a fable find me one commentary that says that and lol what am i?

a christian or a jew to you.

I find this confusing, but...I don't have to find a commentary to know that what you espouse is bad theology. Preterism doesn't align with prophecy---it's carnal men's imaginations run amok.

so when the jews believe what are they part of? the church or isreal if isreal then we arent going to see each other in heaven. lovely you guys do this all time and dont see it.

When any Jew comes to Messiah, he becomes what we Gentiles become---part of that One New Man. I have no idea what you are alluding to about anyone of Israel not being in heaven. Millions of Jews will be our brothers and sisters. God says that all Israel will be saved.

Jeremiah 30:7

In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!

Romans 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.

and no annias didnt and wouldnt repent as he was a pharisee the one who ordered his death and jesus told him that he would see his coming with his angels. that means he would be alive at that judgement but where is annias? you do know that annias was the very vessel that god used to crucify the lord( one of three)

that said. so what will be such a reason for the jews to believe? the gospel isnt good enough? who will teach them? some angel or a church and how will they know what happened if no one knows what happened? all the church is gone and so will read the word to them? the 144k thos are in hevean and gathered from the earth. so it can be them? and angel? but when that happens its only once and one day.

You need to get something straight. Ananias and Annas were two separate people.

Israel will be ministered to by the two prophets, and the 144,000. God will open their eyes to their Messiah once and for all. It happens over a period of seven---count 'em---seven years.

[jasoncran]

a fable find me one commentary that says that and lol what am i?

a christian or a jew to you.

I find this confusing, but...I don't have to find a commentary to know that what you espouse is bad theology. Preterism doesn't align with prophecy---it's carnal men's imaginations run amok.

so when the jews believe what are they part of? the church or isreal if isreal then we arent going to see each other in heaven. lovely you guys do this all time and dont see it.

When any Jew comes to Messiah, he becomes what we Gentiles become---part of that One New Man. I have no idea what you are alluding to about anyone of Israel not being in heaven. Millions of Jews will be our brothers and sisters. God says that all Israel will be saved.

Jeremiah 30:7

In all history there has never been such a time of terror. It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel. Yet in the end they will be saved!

Romans 11:26

And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.

and no annias didnt and wouldnt repent as he was a pharisee the one who ordered his death and jesus told him that he would see his coming with his angels. that means he would be alive at that judgement but where is annias? you do know that annias was the very vessel that god used to crucify the lord( one of three)

that said. so what will be such a reason for the jews to believe? the gospel isnt good enough? who will teach them? some angel or a church and how will they know what happened if no one knows what happened? all the church is gone and so will read the word to them? the 144k thos are in hevean and gathered from the earth. so it can be them? and angel? but when that happens its only once and one day.

You need to get something straight. Ananias and Annas were two separate people.

Israel will be ministered to by the two prophets, and the 144,000. God will open their eyes to their Messiah once and for all. It happens over a period of seven---count 'em---seven years.

so when the church is raptured then does it make sense that god remove his church that has been fulfilling his will to do just what you say. and i know the difference on that two names.

so a walking and talking olive tree shaped as a menorah will teach the word and the 144k that are taken up and sealed. theres no listen or mentioning of them being teachers just elders. that has the old testament connotation not ours.

revalation 7

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

odd no mention of teaching and thanks with that seven thing the jews will know from the date of the rapture(as it wont be so hid) when he comes

tell me what changes in the teachings of matthews"no man knoweth the hour .." will be taught in the trib?

on the two witness i suggest reading the book of zechariah.

[Bold Believer]

In the Rapture (harpozo), the Bridegroom (Jesus Christ) is coming for His Bride the Church, NT Believers (without spot or wrinkle). And in doing so, He takes them to His Fathers House, which is in Heaven. He is going there to prepare a place for us.

At the Second Coming Jesus Christ is coming as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords, to reclaim His Earth... and step up His Kingdom here on Earth (Davidic Kingdom).

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well Marv, let's look a couple of Scriptures and then you tell me if you still think you're correct brother.

Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Sorry, but this is Post Mill., Zech 9:10 - He will proclaim peace to the nations, His rule will extend from sea to sea.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

Sorry, but this is a comparison, (similar to, like unto) a Bride.

It is AFTER the New Heaven and New Earth are revealed that the Bride comes down from God out of heaven. How then can you say that this event occurs over 1000 years BEFORE? Both Eleanor and I (and others as well) have established in other threads that the harpazo/allasso occur on the Last Day. Jesus HIMSELF states that the resurrection occurs on the Last Day, and that he doesn't desire that God remove us from the world (John 6 and John 17).

What is so significant about Rev 21:2 is that the Bride IS IN HEAVEN at the point she is revealed. According to pre-millennialism, the Bride has been on the earth for 1000 years in resurrected bodies received at the Second Coming. According to SCRIPTURE, she's in Heaven with God and revealed on the Last Day.

Bold

True, the Bride will rule with Christ

The Bride is taken up at an unknown time, No warning. Matt 25:10 - The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut. v13 - Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or hour. (This is all about the Bride being taken away by the Bridegroom. Then going up into Heaven) Christs reign on earth is later.

In Christ

Montana Marv

That unknown time with no warning is spoken of by Peter in his second letter. 2 Peter 3:10 states:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

'Like a thief' indicates no warning, but the remainder of the passage also indicates that it won't be a secret either. One could easily get the impression of being caught redhanded in the act of doing something when the authorities come blasting through the door with fully armed SWAT teams.

When the Lord comes, the Church visible (those of us who are still living) will be translated and the Church triumphant (the Church which has pre-deceased us) will have already been resurrected milli-seconds before. They rise first. This translation of saints from earthly live body to glorified body IS (if one desires to use the term: I don't) "the rapture". It consists of harpazo (a violent snatching away) and allasso (a changing from one thing to another).

The Church visible took the Gospel to the world and fulfilled the Great Commission during the millennium, while the Church Triumphant reigned with Christ in heaven. The Kingdom was ruled over by Christ, seated on David's throne (the one intended for David) IN HEAVEN. David received his throne in Christ.

The earthly portion of the Kingdom (in this world) has an end. It was to be for a long period of time, and then God orders Satan released to come against the last vestige of the Church (the Holy City) and the devil sends his followers (Magog from the four corners of the earth) to surround us. Is there any doubt that we ARE being surrounded by the devil's people? I mean come on...it's pretty obvious that they are trying to take over. Even here in the USA, we're getting bombarded with "Freedom From Religion" commercials, demands by godless hordes that cities take down anything to do with God; Christians are being persecuted world-wide to the point of violence now, not just here and there. Even countries who were friendly to Christians now seem to be lining up against them.

It's all a matter of timelines. The Great Tribulation hasn't anything to do with the Second Coming. The tribulation is past news. We won. And we will win the Battle of Gog and Magog too, because our God is the True God, not because of anything WE do.