The Purpose of the "Rapture"

[Montana Marv]

Eleanor

You have it all wrong.

Your quote : Since Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things" (Ac 3:21)

Go back to verse 11. This section of scripture is all about "God" - It is God who must remain in heaven. He, God must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things. Then God comes down with the New Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well, I'm not Eleanor, but I suggest you read that scripture again & go back to verse 20 where it is plainly speaking of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:20,21~And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Goldust

You need to go back to verse 17 and on - Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

All these "he's" are referring to God.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited April 1, 2012 by Montana Marv

[goldust59]

Eleanor

You have it all wrong.

Your quote : Since Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things" (Ac 3:21)

Go back to verse 11. This section of scripture is all about "God" - It is God who must remain in heaven. He, God must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things. Then God comes down with the New Jerusalem.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Well, I'm not Eleanor, but I suggest you read that scripture again & go back to verse 20 where it is plainly speaking of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:20,21~And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Goldust

You need to go back to verse 17 and on - Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

All these "he's" are referring to God.

In Christ

Montana Marv

All but one of them.

[Floatingaxe]

Since Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things" (Ac 3:21)

at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21)

in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13),

where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4),

he won't be leaving heaven to meet the Church in the air (rapture-1Th 4:17)) until the end of time.

The scripture doesn't say the end of time, but the end of the age.

[Floatingaxe]

ah but man has a bias and like or not commentaries do help and the pretrb and all ideas came from them not the fully from the bible itself.

no person has it all figured out. i dont.

But the certain Word of God does:

"we. . .will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (rapture)

Since Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things" (Ac 3:21)

at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21)

in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13),

where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4),

he won't be leaving heaven to meet the Church in the air (rapture-1Th 4:17)) until the end of time.

but he leaves them jews and gentiles in the trib to the wolves.

but that is why i dont buy any form of the tribs. imagine that three jews come to the lord after the two witness, the ac sees them or knows them and orders them killed

having the tanach or the tanach with brit chadosh they die praising the lord, while singing psalms 122 or the one with the lord shall not sleep nor slumber .. what where they doing? HAVING CHURCH!THE CHURCH THAT is universal and the same on jesus is going to marry. all of the redeemed shall be there.

there arent two ressurections for the dead in christ.

This is an interpretation and an imaginary scenario that feeds it, based on the mind, not based on prayerful study and acceptance of what the Word states.

[Floatingaxe]

And the Holy Spirit reveals to others just the opposite of your interpretation.

How do you know which one, if any, is true?

When you study the whole word of God, you receive the full picture from the beginning to end of a time where the Messiah will reign on Earth.

Holy Spirit's job is to convince us of the truth of everything, and His convincing is not questionable, as it aligns with everything scripturally.

A. This is what Scripture specifically states, apart from uncertain private interpretation of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy**

which is given in riddles (Nu 12:6-8):

"we. . .will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (rapture)

Since Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things" (Ac 3:21)

at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21)

in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13),

where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4),

Jesus won't be leaving heaven to meet the Church in the air (rapture-1Th 4:17)) until the end of time.

Since the Church is not lifted from the earth (raptured) until the end of time, there is no time remaining for a temporal earthly millennial kingdom.

This then is what Scripture specifically states.

B. A future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom was derived from Jewish apocalyptic sources, revived betweend 160 and 250 A.D.,

and which made their way into the church during the third century.

During the Apostolic age, ending ~150 A.D., the church knew nothing of a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom.

Likewise, the early Christian creeds, which were statements of Apostolic teaching, do not contain a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom.

The Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed leave no room for it:

"He ascended into heaven and was seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

From thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead."

So according to apostolic teaching, Jesus is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty until he comes to judge the world,

and restore all things (Ac 3:21), which is the end of time (Ro 8:19-21).

And the Athanasian Creed teaches final judgment and eternity at the Second Coming.

The Creeds leave no room for a millennial earthly reign when Christ leaves heaven.

The Apostles did not teach a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom.

Nor does Jesus in Mt 24:14: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world as a testimony to all nations,

and then the end will come."

And in Mt 25:10: "The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut."

So the door is shut when Jesus returns, there will be no more entering for those not ready when he comes, no time for a millennium where others will enter at its end.

C. Scripture locates the New Jerusalem in the new heavens and new earth where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4) because it is eternity,

and not in a millennium of time.

In the only passage in the Bible dealing with a millennium (Rev 20:4-6), there is no mention of Jews, Israel, Palestine, land or Jerusalem.

So these are what is specifically stated in Scripture, apart from uncertain private interpretation of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy,

which is given in riddles (Nu 12:6-8).

_________________

** "uncertain private interpretation of symbolic unfulfilled prophecy" = interpretations not specifically stated in the Word of God,

as they are specifically stated, for example, in:

Da 2, 4, 7, 8; Eze 12, 15, 16, 17, 23, 24, 31, 37; Rev 12, 13, 17;

and where they are assumed in:

Da 9:24; Mt 2:18; Ac 4:11; 15:16; Ro 9:33, 11:8; Gal 4:27; Rev 4:5, 9:7-9, 17-1.

This stems from a basic misunderstanding of prophetic scripture. I did respond to point A in post #137, but the rest is too long and tedious to respond point for point.

[jasoncran]

ah but man has a bias and like or not commentaries do help and the pretrb and all ideas came from them not the fully from the bible itself.

no person has it all figured out. i dont.

But the certain Word of God does:

"we. . .will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (rapture)

Since Jesus "must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore all things" (Ac 3:21)

at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21)

in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness (2Pe 3:13),

where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4),

he won't be leaving heaven to meet the Church in the air (rapture-1Th 4:17)) until the end of time.

but he leaves them jews and gentiles in the trib to the wolves.

but that is why i dont buy any form of the tribs. imagine that three jews come to the lord after the two witness, the ac sees them or knows them and orders them killed

having the tanach or the tanach with brit chadosh they die praising the lord, while singing psalms 122 or the one with the lord shall not sleep nor slumber .. what where they doing? HAVING CHURCH!THE CHURCH THAT is universal and the same on jesus is going to marry. all of the redeemed shall be there.

there arent two ressurections for the dead in christ.

This is an interpretation and an imaginary scenario that feeds it, based on the mind, not based on prayerful study and acceptance of what the Word states.

so given there will be kids in the tribualation that dont know the bible or what happened but do sin. how will they know what sin is? and there wasnt a bible in cains day and yet god told sin lieth at the door. so he had to tell man what sin was!

since we have all that we need in the bible then why wouldnt make sense to say that some will be reading the bible? this is why i call futurism another gospel!careful study? god convicted me on somethings and told me to make sure the flesh wasnt involved in our discussions . i also asked him where i was off and to show me what i did wrong and he well i wont post what else he said as that is too private to out on the .net or in pms.

just because the bible doesnt say the church isnt there doesnt mean thears not one there. the same could be said of the patriarchs and the noahides and also enoch and cain and able. noah found grace in eyes of god. so who taught him god was graceful? its not there so the law or a law of god wasnt given to tell then I am God and this is what I want you to do?

[Floatingaxe]

so given there will be kids in the tribualation that dont know the bible or what happened but do sin. how will they know what sin is? and there wasnt a bible in cains day and yet god told sin lieth at the door. so he had to tell man what sin was!

Once again, the Tribulation will be a time of terror and trouble and death and people will reject the Lord. Those who reject Him now while they are under God's mercy, and while He is calling will not be running to Him then when mercy is not on offer.

since we have all that we need in the bible then why wouldnt make sense to say that some will be reading the bible? this is why i call futurism another gospel!careful study? god convicted me on somethings and told me to make sure the flesh wasnt involved in our discussions . i also asked him where i was off and to show me what i did wrong and he well i wont post what else he said as that is too private to out on the .net or in pms.

Some will run to their bibles---especially those who are familiar with the message but rejected it.

Your coined word of futurism is nonsense, and is based on the flesh, because of its divisive use and intent.

just because the bible doesnt say the church isnt there doesnt mean thears not one there. the same could be said of the patriarchs and the noahides and also enoch and cain and able. noah found grace in eyes of god. so who taught him god was graceful? its not there so the law or a law of god wasnt given to tell then I am God and this is what I want you to do?

The Church will be with the Bridegroom, gettin' hitched. The era of Tribulation is not for us.

[goldust59]

Eleanor, We have the Holy Spirit to reveal to us what the riddles mean & it is an ongoing process of revelation. I believe that God intends for all His riddles to be understood in His timing & He reveals as it is time to do so.

Do you have any idea why he is revealing opposite meanings of the same Scriptures to so many people?

I really don't know that He is. Maybe the same thing that happened to me is happening to others.

When I first started really hearing, I would get an understanding of something & instantly think I had all the truth about that one thing. I found out along the way that wasn't how it worked most of the time. The Lord seems to like to put pieces together a little at a time.

So I have come to think that may be what is happening in a lot of cases. When a person thinks that they have obtained a certain truth, they tend to stop looking at that area with an open spirit & can miss further revelation. I know, cause I been there, done that. Was quite humbling too!

That's why I try to stay open & will examine other perspectives on things, especially things that appear to be solid but cause a lot of division within the Body.

Let's not forgot that we have an adversary that will take a truth & mix in a lie to cause confusion. The devil DOES NOT want the Body to come into agreement.

We need to agree only on what is necessary to salvation and godliness.

Although I agree that we need to agree on those things, I believe God has a plan for us that He has not fully revealed. I think part of it is to bring us to a fully mature Body without all the division evident today.

I believe only what Scripture states.

here is scripture about the mature Body:

Ephesians 4:11-13~ And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; For the perfecting(equipping) of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in(to) the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect(mature) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

14-16~That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive: But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things,which is the Head, even Christ: From Whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, makes increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

I missed part of your post (#119).

Hidden in the written Word are many, many truths. The further revelation I spoke of was referring to those hidden truths that the Holy Spirit reveals as the time is right for Him to do so. We just have to be open to receive what He says.

Has anything been revealed to you that is not already in the certain Word of God?

If you mean by that, have I seen underlying truths in the Word, then the answer would be yes. There are hidden truths throughout the Word that are not just "plainly" written out. We have to 'search' them out & meditate on the Word & listen to His Spirit & let Him put the pieces together.

Thanks.

Would you share a couple of those revelations so I can understand what you mean.

I will, but may be few days before I do. Will pray on it first.

[goldust59]

Eleanor, I think that over time, the depth of understanding that the apostles had was partially lost to us due to men throwing in their views. I think that God is opening our understanding to to this to bring us to maturity as a whole, properly functioning body to bring about His purposes in the last days. Everything we need to know is in the written Word, but hidden until the Holy Spirit opens our understanding of it.

I think not being able to see what the apostles understood & put in writing is what opens the 'church' to being apostate.

The ONLY protection from straying from the truth is the Holy Spirit.

[jasoncran]

no he doesnt. what they didnt know or understand. i dont think we will know more then they did. they were just vessels and only had revalation when the lord saw fit to tell them.