Arthur Durnan Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,782 Content Per Day: 0.36 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/14/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted April 28, 2012 Three Cheers for the U.S. Marines who help guarantee liberty, precious liberty for believers & unbelievers alike! No murder allowed on a personal level (Thou shalt do no murder!), but permitted on a national/governmental level (Romans 13). Westboro Baptist. Is that some sort of homosexual organization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Three Cheers for the U.S. Marines who help guarantee liberty, precious liberty for believers & unbelievers alike! No murder allowed on a personal level (Thou shalt do no murder!), but permitted on a national/governmental level (Romans 13). Westboro Baptist. Is that some sort of homosexual organization? LOL...no. They are the alleged Christians who stand on corners with signs reading "God hates queers" and other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted April 28, 2012 again, there is a difference between revenge, and protection. If someone attacks your wife, and you pull them off and knock them out, thats protecting your wife. If someone attacks your wife, and then leaves, and you hunt them down and beat the tar out of them, then thats revenge. There is a difference here. Same with "killing" someone. just because someone broke into your house while you were on vacation and stole your grandmas diamond ring she gave your wife doesnt mean you hunt the guy down and kill him, thats revenge-at that point its best to call the cops and let them handle it. But if your home, and someone breaks into your home screaming threats, there is a decided difference. The same with war-if going to war protects the innocent, or your country, then its justified-if your just going to war to hurt others, then its not. Personally, I dont ever want to kill anyone for any reason. Am I willing to to protect my family and country? yes, if absolutly necessary, but I dont want to. Can you show both of these elements in the New Testament as post resurrection standards of righteousness as seen in Christ who is our standard? Gary Romans 13:1-4, emphasis on 4. The ruler is the one who executes the wrath of God on evil by use of the sword of justice (machaira) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted April 28, 2012 again, there is a difference between revenge, and protection. If someone attacks your wife, and you pull them off and knock them out, thats protecting your wife. If someone attacks your wife, and then leaves, and you hunt them down and beat the tar out of them, then thats revenge. There is a difference here. Same with "killing" someone. just because someone broke into your house while you were on vacation and stole your grandmas diamond ring she gave your wife doesnt mean you hunt the guy down and kill him, thats revenge-at that point its best to call the cops and let them handle it. But if your home, and someone breaks into your home screaming threats, there is a decided difference. The same with war-if going to war protects the innocent, or your country, then its justified-if your just going to war to hurt others, then its not. Personally, I dont ever want to kill anyone for any reason. Am I willing to to protect my family and country? yes, if absolutly necessary, but I dont want to. Can you show both of these elements in the New Testament as post resurrection standards of righteousness as seen in Christ who is our standard? Gary Romans 13:1-4, emphasis on 4. The ruler is the one who executes the wrath of God on evil by use of the sword of justice (machaira) Thank you for the reply, I see you sought to address one of the two elements using Romans. I understand where you are coming from and why you would conclude such a thing, but I tend to see it as a whole in scripture that cannot be simply understood in segregated parts such as this text in Romans. When I view civilized government, I do not see Christians in charge of it because they who govern do not govern after the style of government that Jesus gave to those who would follow him. Instead I see people who God has raised up to rule over us that have rejected the truth of Gods form of human government given by Jesus unto his followers. Those who God raises up in power over the nations and move to inflict justice among the people by their own hand are no different than God using Satan to move David to number the people of Israel because he desired to judge the nation as a whole through the decision of the leadership. God expects me to go directly to my brother if there is something wrong between us and if he won't hear me then I am to take it before a couple of others. If he still will not hear then he is to come before the church itself. If he won't hear the church then he is to be considered as a heathen and given over to the righteous judgment of God who judges those who are without. Gods kingdom is governed by God through the mouths of his chosen people who the Holy Spirit has placed in leadership positions. When the need arises for the sword to be brought against some evil doer, God brings that sword from without. God has always raised up evil against evil to destroy evil people. Israel as a nation were no different. God instructed them directly on what to do and when to do it as they brought judgment against people. There is no instruction for people today to inflict any judgment upon one another by the hand of humans. God just moves those into position to do such a thing who believe that it is right to do when he desires to bring judgment upon someone. There is only one who has the right and authority to inflict judgment upon man. That one is the man Christ Jesus who suffered at the hand of man but trusted God the Father to judge righteously and inflict judgment upon those who were worthy of punishment. Angels also are ordained to minister judgment upon the human race as this age was put in subjection unto them as per the book of Hebrews. The age to come is not. It is put in subjection unto Christ as Head of the government that will be upon his shoulders and the Church, who is his body, that suffered along with him in this age as they bore the weight of the sin of others against themselves without resisting through evil means but rather returning good for evil and trusting God the Father to take vengeance as needed because vengeance belongs unto him. This is what I see when I read scripture. It is not very popular with those who wish to work to make a life for themselves here in our present age, living for themselves and their personal pleasures in this life. Holding this position also brings persecution from those who believe that it is their responsibility to bring truth and justice into the world by their own hands in the name of God. The very ones who fight for the freedoms that the people of this country enjoy. There is a reason that the United States needs a strong military to protect the freedoms that are given to the people of the nation. They protect the freedom of the people to kill their unborn babies, act in grotesque sinful sexual fulfillment of personal desire, blaspheme the word of God, let their children run rampant rioting in the night, live in a drunken stupor, teach their children atheistic evolution in schools and much much more. If ever there were a nation of people who followed after the law of Christ and lived for God presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice doing what is their reasonable service, you would see a nation without a need of walls to restrain evil. God would destroy anyone who dared come up against them, himself. But people don't do such things and are forced to defend themselves from those that God raises up against them. We have been made kings and priests by our God to rule and reign righteously here on earth while we are here. But that ruling is limited to using the power of our words said unto others to instruct in righteousness while allowing the wrath of God to be revealed from heaven against all those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. This is why we have no fellowship with the works of darkness but rather reprove them. The one who doesn't turn at Gods reproof that we give through his spirit that dwells within us receive the recompense of their error which is meet from God who takes vengeance. This is why a Bishop must be blameless and have his family in subjection with all gravity. He is to be fully practiced in using the authority God gives his words to edify his own family before he can ever have a hope of righteously leading a flock of Gods children unto righteousness. Peace be with you and all knowledge, wisdom and spiritual understanding from our Father who gives to all those who diligently seek him. May he bless you richly. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 28, 2012 again, there is a difference between revenge, and protection. If someone attacks your wife, and you pull them off and knock them out, thats protecting your wife. If someone attacks your wife, and then leaves, and you hunt them down and beat the tar out of them, then thats revenge. There is a difference here. Same with "killing" someone. just because someone broke into your house while you were on vacation and stole your grandmas diamond ring she gave your wife doesnt mean you hunt the guy down and kill him, thats revenge-at that point its best to call the cops and let them handle it. But if your home, and someone breaks into your home screaming threats, there is a decided difference. The same with war-if going to war protects the innocent, or your country, then its justified-if your just going to war to hurt others, then its not. Personally, I dont ever want to kill anyone for any reason. Am I willing to to protect my family and country? yes, if absolutly necessary, but I dont want to. Can you show both of these elements in the New Testament as post resurrection standards of righteousness as seen in Christ who is our standard? Gary Romans 13:1-4, emphasis on 4. The ruler is the one who executes the wrath of God on evil by use of the sword of justice (machaira) Thank you for the reply, I see you sought to address one of the two elements using Romans. I understand where you are coming from and why you would conclude such a thing, but I tend to see it as a whole in scripture that cannot be simply understood in segregated parts such as this text in Romans. When I view civilized government, I do not see Christians in charge of it because they who govern do not govern after the style of government that Jesus gave to those who would follow him. Instead I see people who God has raised up to rule over us that have rejected the truth of Gods form of human government given by Jesus unto his followers. Those who God raises up in power over the nations and move to inflict justice among the people by their own hand are no different than God using Satan to move David to number the people of Israel because he desired to judge the nation as a whole through the decision of the leadership. God expects me to go directly to my brother if there is something wrong between us and if he won't hear me then I am to take it before a couple of others. If he still will not hear then he is to come before the church itself. If he won't hear the church then he is to be considered as a heathen and given over to the righteous judgment of God who judges those who are without. Gods kingdom is governed by God through the mouths of his chosen people who the Holy Spirit has placed in leadership positions. When the need arises for the sword to be brought against some evil doer, God brings that sword from without. God has always raised up evil against evil to destroy evil people. Israel as a nation were no different. God instructed them directly on what to do and when to do it as they brought judgment against people. There is no instruction for people today to inflict any judgment upon one another by the hand of humans. God just moves those into position to do such a thing who believe that it is right to do when he desires to bring judgment upon someone. There is only one who has the right and authority to inflict judgment upon man. That one is the man Christ Jesus who suffered at the hand of man but trusted God the Father to judge righteously and inflict judgment upon those who were worthy of punishment. Angels also are ordained to minister judgment upon the human race as this age was put in subjection unto them as per the book of Hebrews. The age to come is not. It is put in subjection unto Christ as Head of the government that will be upon his shoulders and the Church, who is his body, that suffered along with him in this age as they bore the weight of the sin of others against themselves without resisting through evil means but rather returning good for evil and trusting God the Father to take vengeance as needed because vengeance belongs unto him. This is what I see when I read scripture. It is not very popular with those who wish to work to make a life for themselves here in our present age, living for themselves and their personal pleasures in this life. Holding this position also brings persecution from those who believe that it is their responsibility to bring truth and justice into the world by their own hands in the name of God. The very ones who fight for the freedoms that the people of this country enjoy. There is a reason that the United States needs a strong military to protect the freedoms that are given to the people of the nation. They protect the freedom of the people to kill their unborn babies, act in grotesque sinful sexual fulfillment of personal desire, blaspheme the word of God, let their children run rampant rioting in the night, live in a drunken stupor, teach their children atheistic evolution in schools and much much more. If ever there were a nation of people who followed after the law of Christ and lived for God presenting their bodies as a living sacrifice doing what is their reasonable service, you would see a nation without a need of walls to restrain evil. God would destroy anyone who dared come up against them, himself. But people don't do such things and are forced to defend themselves from those that God raises up against them. We have been made kings and priests by our God to rule and reign righteously here on earth while we are here. But that ruling is limited to using the power of our words said unto others to instruct in righteousness while allowing the wrath of God to be revealed from heaven against all those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. This is why we have no fellowship with the works of darkness but rather reprove them. The one who doesn't turn at Gods reproof that we give through his spirit that dwells within us receive the recompense of their error which is meet from God who takes vengeance. This is why a Bishop must be blameless and have his family in subjection with all gravity. He is to be fully practiced in using the authority God gives his words to edify his own family before he can ever have a hope of righteously leading a flock of Gods children unto righteousness. Peace be with you and all knowledge, wisdom and spiritual understanding from our Father who gives to all those who diligently seek him. May he bless you richly. Gary ok. let me ask you this. what if your pastor embellezed over 100grand in church money? and was confronted and didnt repent? no jail as you have proof and his admission. the demonation moved him and he has a new church. yet what then we just allowed an evil to persist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted April 28, 2012 ok. let me ask you this. what if your pastor embellezed over 100grand in church money? and was confronted and didnt repent? no jail as you have proof and his admission. the demonation moved him and he has a new church. yet what then we just allowed an evil to persist? I don't quite understand what your asking of me. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted April 28, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 28, 2012 ok. let me ask you this. what if your pastor embellezed over 100grand in church money? and was confronted and didnt repent? no jail as you have proof and his admission. the demonation moved him and he has a new church. yet what then we just allowed an evil to persist? I don't quite understand what your asking of me. Gary my church just before i started attending had a pastor who took the church credit card and ate out each day, but furniture on that card. he was confronted with the first 40k and then said i wont do it agian and the board of directors forgave the debt and did work out some payback with him. he also lied as they let him have the card again and did it all over again and this time it was about 100 grand when both time are take together. he didnt repent and still sees NO wrong in what he did! that demands some outside justice meaning prison time. yet he is given what? a church in a few counties over! his buddy overseer made the board feel like that pastor was the victim! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted April 29, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted April 29, 2012 ok. let me ask you this. what if your pastor embellezed over 100grand in church money? and was confronted and didnt repent? no jail as you have proof and his admission. the demonation moved him and he has a new church. yet what then we just allowed an evil to persist? I don't quite understand what your asking of me. Gary my church just before i started attending had a pastor who took the church credit card and ate out each day, but furniture on that card. he was confronted with the first 40k and then said i wont do it agian and the board of directors forgave the debt and did work out some payback with him. he also lied as they let him have the card again and did it all over again and this time it was about 100 grand when both time are take together. he didnt repent and still sees NO wrong in what he did! that demands some outside justice meaning prison time. yet he is given what? a church in a few counties over! his buddy overseer made the board feel like that pastor was the victim! What he did is tragic. Whose responsibility do you believe it is to employ the justice that you feel is lacking in this case? Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncran Posted April 29, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,246 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 90 Days Won: 5 Joined: 02/16/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted April 29, 2012 ok. let me ask you this. what if your pastor embellezed over 100grand in church money? and was confronted and didnt repent? no jail as you have proof and his admission. the demonation moved him and he has a new church. yet what then we just allowed an evil to persist? I don't quite understand what your asking of me. Gary my church just before i started attending had a pastor who took the church credit card and ate out each day, but furniture on that card. he was confronted with the first 40k and then said i wont do it agian and the board of directors forgave the debt and did work out some payback with him. he also lied as they let him have the card again and did it all over again and this time it was about 100 grand when both time are take together. he didnt repent and still sees NO wrong in what he did! that demands some outside justice meaning prison time. yet he is given what? a church in a few counties over! his buddy overseer made the board feel like that pastor was the victim! What he did is tragic. Whose responsibility do you believe it is to employ the justice that you feel is lacking in this case? Gary the irs and that the church hq should inform the irs as such, but since this has been done and the irs said that they really cant do much with this. not much can be done. so he walks free and free to decieve a whole church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted April 29, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,711 Content Per Day: 2.45 Reputation: 8,528 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted April 29, 2012 @Gdemoss I love it when people emphasise new testament standards, and assume that since Jesus "did away with" the old covenant that the OT no longer counts, and its false. The God of thr OT is the same God in The NT. And Jesus didnt come to do away with the law but to fulfil the law. The apostle Paul said that the law was in place so that we know what sin is. And its also in the NT that all sctipture is God breathed and to be used for teaching and reproof. Im on my cell here and having a hard time looking stuff up but when I get home tonight ill post the exact scripture references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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