Which of the 613 Laws should Messianic Gentiles observe?

[JohnD]

Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Galatians 6:2 (KJV)

2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

[angelad]

I'm struggling with Messianic Gentilism, and was wondering if someone had some insight.

First, I believe that all of the Torah is relevant to the every Christian, but I'm not sure which of these we should observe as Gentile Christians.

I believe this is a major sticking point with your average Christian. They see a long list of Do's and Dont's and think it's impossible to meet these expectations, so "why even try". They give up before examining this question, or give a trite answer that "we're no longer under the Law". I think this is a major reason Messianic Churches are so small, and if we can address it, hopefully grow the Messianic movement.

So how do you keep the Torah as a Messianic Gentile?

In general, I have found two main perspectives incoming to Messianic fellowshipping. I use "fellowshipping" to mean entering into that whole sphere.

You seem to be coming from an education in Judaism to some extend and the other (main) perspective is the Gentile one, those with little or no (or weird) understandings of Judaism as it is now and in the (say) last 900 years.

In between those two ends of Messianic Judaism is likely the balance.

(Non) Messianic Judaism teaches great respect for the "Sages" and Maimonides (Rambam) http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Maimonides was one of the most respected of all of them (post-Second Temple Judaism). It was Rambam (Maimonidies) who carefully went through all of Torah and the Jewish Bible as well as the wealth of oral tradition still known at his time. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm For the most part, it was he who came up with the 613 commandments (mitvot) list. I think it important to point out two major flaws in his works (while not detracting from the fact it is a great work).

1. Rambam did NOT know Y'shua. Rambam cognitively (well informed) rejected Y'shua as Messiah. Therefore, the works Rambam did on Scripture (though great) did not have the insights available to one who would have had G-d's Holy Spirit helping him. Rambam was a genius. But so was Einstien. And it took Einstien his whole life to finally come to the conclusion that a God of all Creation must exist.

2. Many (if not most) of the 613 mitvot are reiterations of the same commandments. And according to Y'shua (Jesus) all can be condensed into the 10 commandments, which can be condensed into 2, Love God ("...with all your heart....") and "love your neighbor as yourself."

To prove my point, please note Maimonides's #326

1. Not to give up hating the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN25).
   

Also from another website: http://www.mechon-ma.../jewfaq/613.htm

"Laws of Idolatry and Gentile Customs include fifty-one commandments, two positive commandments and forty-nine negative commandments, which are: (1) not to turn to idolatry; (2) not to stray after thoughts of the heart and sights of the eyes; (3) not to blaspheme; (4) not to worship an object of idolatry in its normal way; (5) not to prostrate oneself to it; (6) not to make a graven image for oneself; (7) not to make a graven image even for others; (8) not to make figures even for decoration; (9) not to proselytize others after it; (10) to burn a city that has been proselytized over to idolatry; (11) not to rebuild it; (12) not to benefit from any of its property; (13) not to entice an individual to worship it; (14) not to love the enticer; (15) not to leave off hating him; (16) not to save him; (17) not to plead for his acquittal; (18) not to refrain from pleading for his conviction;"

It is exactly these pre-judgings (prejudice) that crept into Commentaries on the Jewish Bible that end up with perversions of God's Word. Notice (15) above.

The same happens with Gentiles coming in (from the other side of Messianic Judaism) having been taught how to "see" or "view" portions of God's Word because of Christian Commentaries having done much the same, ie. John MacArthur's teachings, Scoefield, Moody, etc. And we get into a lot of trouble when "Christians" mention their Commentators had God's Spirit to help them. Often, they may have had God's Spirit but not the due diligence of Jewish Bible scholars to read what was given originally.

Y'shua did not ever teach any of us to "not stop hating" anyone, no matter what. And (most) all of Non-Messianic Judaism teaches that to accept Y'shua is to enter into idolatry. So, can it be right for them to "not stop hating" us? It is exactly Maimonides very teachings which have solidified this wall that keeps most Jews from accepting Messiah and we who would be their brethren otherwise.

Here's an example of how it works. I had an Athiest for an earthly father. He was also the one born Jewish. As a family man he far outshown most men who claim to know Jesus. He never stepped out on my mother. He was a particularly good and responsible citizen of his country. His finances were always in order and credit examplary. Hiis work ethic was sterling. His children were well fed, clothed, and properly educated with all reasonable medical provided all the days they lived in his home. His wife was religious but he never showed any disregard to it to his children because he signed on for her as she was. We took annual vacations. But his theology sucked. He just plain hated God though I only learned that (for sure, from his own mouth) in my late 30's (out of his respect for my mothers beliefs because he waited until she died).

To me this speaks of how we are to remember and honor Rambam and what he taught. There ARE errors in it.

I find the Bible itself much preferrable to any man's teachings except Y'shua's as he alone was God's own Word (unadulterated) to us.

We are not above "the Law" (and I do not mean just the Mosaic Law, but all laws as Jesus obeyed even Roman law, to the death!) but we are not below the law either. All the Law stands. But the 613 are not exactly as God gave them. God did not line them up out of context. And we all know many of them were not each a new one but often repeating what He had said already.

That is why Y'shua is called "the Way." That is why Enoch was referred to as "walking with God." We walk with the Lord through our lives, in whatever countries, according to His Word (now known also as Y'shua who explains/explained so much). The exodus through the Reed Sea (Red Sea) is a lovely example, the feet of God's people were on the ground, not above it, or under it, going through "a way".

Shalom, hope this helps.

Thus we do through God's Laws, via His Word.

Edited July 1, 2012 by angelad

[Stan53]

I'm struggling with Messianic Gentilism, and was wondering if someone had some insight.

First, I believe that all of the Torah is relevant to the every Christian, but I'm not sure which of these we should observe as Gentile Christians.

I believe this is a major sticking point with your average Christian. They see a long list of Do's and Dont's and think it's impossible to meet these expectations, so "why even try". They give up before examining this question, or give a trite answer that "we're no longer under the Law". I think this is a major reason Messianic Churches are so small, and if we can address it, hopefully grow the Messianic movement.

So how do you keep the Torah as a Messianic Gentile?

It seems from the very beginning of Christianity, Paul and Peter fought about this and it is a continual divide in the Christian community. We are Christians, NOT messianic Gentiles. The Messiah was for the Jews, but even messianic Jews is a misnomer.

We are Christians because we surrender and committ our lives to CHRIST who is our Saviour. The Jews may be forgiven back then for wanting to retain familiar settings and wording, but once Christ rose from the dead, the Old Covenant was over and the New Covenant commenced. You either accept what Jesus, Paul, Peter and others said about the OC law being completed and obsolete, or you don't. We are NOW under the Law of the Holy Spirit, and that is how we are to walk with Christ.

Heb 6:1-2 states;

Therefore let us

move beyond

the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken

forward to maturity

, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

This is NOT telling the Jews to go BACK to their old laws, it is telling them to move BEYOND and FORWARD. The OC is fulfilled and the NC stands. We need to recognize that, accept it and move ONWARD.

[JohnD]

People who have read my posts know I am no fan of Catholicism (and instrument of deJudaizing the faith)... or Protestantism which did not reform nearly enough... and Messianics tend to mimic unbelieving Jews too much including their death grip on the Torah of Moses which is superseded by the Torah of Messiah.

Torah Moshe is applicable to the Christian / Messianic in that it is fulfilled by our faith in Yeshua / Jesus.

Galatians 3:24-25 (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[JohnD]

Paul wrote this but kept the feasts. He came to Jerusalem to keep Pentecost. Not even Pentecostals keep Pentecost.

[JohnD]

Torah Moshe still stands to measure good and evil. It will also condemn unbelievers.

John 5:45 (NIV)

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

[Stan53]

Torah Moshe still stands to measure good and evil. It will also condemn unbelievers.

John 5:45 (NIV)

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.

Well this would be quoting totally out of context, but I think we would all appreciate it if you quoted the posts you are referring to using the proper tool provided.

Thanks

Edited July 15, 2012 by Stan53

[Hawkins]

I'm struggling with Messianic Gentilism, and was wondering if someone had some insight.

First, I believe that all of the Torah is relevant to the every Christian, but I'm not sure which of these we should observe as Gentile Christians.

I believe this is a major sticking point with your average Christian. They see a long list of Do's and Dont's and think it's impossible to meet these expectations, so "why even try". They give up before examining this question, or give a trite answer that "we're no longer under the Law". I think this is a major reason Messianic Churches are so small, and if we can address it, hopefully grow the Messianic movement.

So how do you keep the Torah as a Messianic Gentile?

Keep whatever Jesus Christ mentioned, followed by what are still meaningful to the church.

Matthew 19

New International Version (NIV)

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 22:

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Matthew 19:

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

That is, first love God and man. Then other commandments.

Then the Sabbath and Tith, because they will be beneficial to the church.

As for others mentioned in the Torah, God will be pleased if you can keep. But it is unexpected that you'll be able to keep. And first of all, you should try your best to secure your own salvation first, that is, to learn and practice Jesus Christ's teaching first before you keep those in the Torah.

[He giveth more grace]

The Apostolic counsel at Jerusalem passed this edict, Do not eat anything strangled and what was the other - maybe, keep yourselves from Idol?

The whole law hangs on this one thing, Love your neighbor as you love yourselves. Love does his neighbor no harm therefore love is keeping the commandment.

Someone said, talking about the law, ...neither we nor our fathers were able to keep...

[Stan53]

The Apostolic counsel at Jerusalem passed this edict, Do not eat anything strangled and what was the other - maybe, keep yourselves from Idol?

The whole law hangs on this one thing, Love your neighbor as you love yourselves. Love does his neighbor no harm therefore love is keeping the commandment.

Someone said, talking about the law, ...neither we nor our fathers were able to keep...

Yeh the issue here was Judaism already beginning to pollute the church. Paul fought against is but eventually compromise. If you read ALL of Paul's letters, he never really supports this.