Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, it is going to be you who will be running into problems. You put God's holiness first and foremost and only ascribed "love" to what His Son did on the cross.....this becomes a problem.

The Bible is centered around the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That is what the OT looks forward toward and what we look backwards at. It is the focal point of all of Scripture. The death of Jesus was, as I said, the fullest expression of God's love. I did not ascribe it as his ONLY expression of love, but as the fullest or the ultimate expression of HIs love. If anything I am exalting His love.

God is also Truth. Is His Truth secondary to His first and foremost "Holiness?"

Yes it is.

You say that the other attributes don't compromise His holiness.

That's because they don't. He holds those attributes in holiness, but they are not the same as holiness. In other words, God's love and other comunicable attributes are unique as they are applied to Him because He is sinless. God also hates (Psalm 5:5-6, Proberbs 6: 16-19). But God holds that hatred in holiness. That means that God's attributes of love, mercy, and so forth are not tainted by sin. We can love, but our love is tainted. We can be merciful but our mercy is tainted.

Yet, it is you who put Truth secondary to His First and Foremost Holiness. We never did that. God is one. And He is as He is, which is why His name is Yawheh (I am who I am). You, on the other hand, is already telling God who He is by ascribing to Him what should be first and foremost.

No, I am telling you what the Bible says about God's holiness. If God let one sin go unpunished, He would no longer be a holy God. Jesus was holy and sinless and that was why he was qualified to be our sin bearer. If Jesus had committed one half of one sin, He would not have been our Redeemer. He was the sinless Lamb. The love of Jesus would have been meaningless had He not been holy because only a holy Lamb of God could have taken away the sin of the world.

The Bible calls God holy It is referring to everything that separates God from us and makes Him the object of worship. Because God is absolutely Holy in every way, every other part of His nature is likewise holy. That does not mean they are the same as "holiness," but that holiness is the core concept. It speaks of His absolue purity which cannot tolerate sin. Because of this, man cannot stand in His presence and live. Were we exposed to God's unfiltered holiness, we would be vaporized instantly.

The Bible consitently emphasize the holiness of God, His purity the sanctity of His Name. God's holiness is His chief attribute because that is how the Bible presents it. God is holy, His love is holy, His mercy is holy, everything about God is first and foremost holy.

Agreed !!!!

Would add something but dont have anything to add lol

Then you can also help Shiloh find where in the Bible it says that God's Truth is secondary to His Holiness. Provide book, chapter and verse. Also, show me in the Bible where it says that God's Holiness is first and foremost. Provide book, chapter and verse.

Easy there ! I was in agreeance to Shiloh's rebuttal.... But shiloh is absolutely 100 and 10% correct that God's holiness is what separates him and Man !

Lets look at scripture to provide what you think is lacking in Shiloh's response.

God is Holy, both in Character and in Deed !

Isaiah 6:3 "And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come."

Separation Of God Among All, He is consumed of Holiness, and so is His House !

Exodus 15:11 "Who is like You, O Lord, among the god's? Who is like You, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders?"

Psalms 30:4 "Sing praise to the Lord, you saints of His, And give thanks at the remembrance of His holy name."

Psalm 93:5 "Your testimonies are very sure, Holiness adorns Your house, O Lord, forever."

Amos 4:2 "The Lord God has sworn by His holiness:........"

Romans 1:4 "and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead."

Romans 5 :21 "so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Compare to Romans 1:4)

We Will Never Be In the same Love, and Righteousness Until the Day we are Renewed

Romans 6:22 "But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life."

When Isaiah beheld the holiness of God, he became instantly aware of his own unworthiness before God. (Isaiah 6:1-5)

You should have read what Shiloh said before you agreed with him because that is not what Shiloh posted. He said that God's holiness is first and foremost than any of His other attributes such as His Mercy, Truth, Wisdom, Goodness, etc.

It is two days now and still I don't see any biblical passage of God's Truth being secondary to His holiness? What happened there??? It seems to me that Shiloh's belief is unbiblical. The Catechism I posted is actually biblical.

Actually what Jacob posted is spot on. He is in exact agreement with me. He demonstrates my point, quite well.

You need to reread my post. I have demonstrated over and over that His holiness is the first attribute people experience when they encountered God. It was not His love and mercy that impacted them. They were impacted by His love and mercy.

Again, I have already stated that I do not have a chapter and verse that says what you asked for, verbatim. What I DO have is whole counsel of God that repeatedly demonstrates over and over that God's holiness is His first and foremost attribute. It is entirely Scriptural but you are hell bent on having some axe to grind, so you ask for what is impossible for what you know I cannot produce and then pretend you have won some victory. His holiness permeates all of His other attributes, and the Bible demonstrates it over and over has I have shown you.

[Guest shiloh357]

Let's be honest, Shiloh. The above is your response to my question. I asked you if God's Truth is secondary to His Holiness, which you say is first and foremost. Your response to that question was "yes." So, I challenged you to find biblical scripture showing that God's truth is secondary to His holiness. I waited for two days and still nothing. You are correct. It isn't in the Holy Bible. I told you that God's name is Yawheh (I am who am). And this is what our Catechism says:

And I demonstrated that God's holiness is His chief attribute. I don't have provide a single verse that says "God's truth is secondary to His holiness" for my statement to be true. The Bible, over and over tells us that God's holiness is His chief attribute. You can see it over and over again in how people experience God's presence. It is love or truth they experience, it is His holiness. It is the first thing you encounter when you encounter God's presence. His holiness is dealth with and expounded on more than any other attribute in Scripture. The Bible presents God first as holy and unapproachable without something to cover us and protect us from the sheer power of His holiness. That has been demonstrated to you over and over.

And ;while we're at it, it would behoove you stop being a hypocrite. You have a lot of things you believe to be true as a Catholic that if I were to press your for chapter and verse from the Bible, you could not provide chapter and verse even though those things are believed to be part of biblical truth. So you are really fighting a losing battle here because you obviously don't know the Scriptures and you don't have a clue about how the attributes of God interact with each other.

In other words, God is the fullness of Truth, Wisdom, Holiness, and of every perfection there is. None of God's attributes is less of anything nor secondary to anything because He is one and the fullness of Being and every perfection and above all things.

Your catechism is nothing more than a book written by men. I have plenty of scholars and theolgians I can quote who agree with me and make a case for the Holiness of God being His chief attribute. That God is the fullnes of those things, doesn't mean that Holiness is not chief attribute of God. God is not more holy than He is truth, love, mercy etc. But He holds those attributes IN holiness. In other words God holds those attributes in a way that is unique because they are unstanined by sin.

Your statements above are also extremely confusing. See what I placed in bold. If it was not His love and mercy that impacted them, then why were they impacted by His love and mercy? Or does God not have any love and mercy that He can impact on people?

Sorry, my mistake. I was on the phone and trying to multi-task. What it should have said is that They were not impacted by His love and mercy; they were impacted by His holiness. THat is the first thing they encounter when they encountered God's presence. Moses, the children of Israel, the priesthood, Isaiah and the other prophets, Paul on the road to Damascus, even John on the Isle of Patmos. When they encounted God it affected them with awe, dread, blindness or death. They either bowed to the ground or they were knocked to the ground. That is the holiness of God.

[Jayyycuuup]

Actually, it is going to be you who will be running into problems. You put God's holiness first and foremost and only ascribed "love" to what His Son did on the cross.....this becomes a problem.

The Bible is centered around the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. That is what the OT looks forward toward and what we look backwards at. It is the focal point of all of Scripture. The death of Jesus was, as I said, the fullest expression of God's love. I did not ascribe it as his ONLY expression of love, but as the fullest or the ultimate expression of HIs love. If anything I am exalting His love.

God is also Truth. Is His Truth secondary to His first and foremost "Holiness?"

Yes it is.

Let's be honest, Shiloh. Jacob's response is totally different. He is saying that God's holiness separates Him from man. The above is your response to my question. I asked you if God's Truth is secondary to His Holiness, which you say is first and foremost. Your response to that question was "yes." So, I challenged you to find biblical scripture showing that God's truth is secondary to His holiness. I waited for two days and still nothing. You are correct. It isn't in the Holy Bible. I told you that God's name is Yawheh (I am who am). And this is what our Catechism says:

CCC 213 The revelation of the ineffable name "I Am Who Am" contains then the truth that God alone IS. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, and following it the Church's Tradition, understood the divine name in this sense: God is the fullness of Being of every perfection, without origin and without end. All creatures receive all that they are and have from Him; but He alone is His very being, and He is of Himself everything that He is.

In other words, God is the fullness of Truth, Wisdom, Holiness, and of every perfection there is. None of God's attributes is less of anything nor secondary to anything because He is one and the fullness of Being and every perfection and above all things.

I have demonstrated over and over that His holiness is the first attribute people experience when they encountered God. It was not His love and mercy that impacted them. They were impacted by His love and mercy.

Your statements above are also extremely confusing. See what I placed in bold. If it was not His love and mercy that impacted them, then why were they impacted by His love and mercy? Or does God not have any love and mercy that He can impact on people?

First I must ask what is CCC ?

Another thing Selene.... what is holiness ? Until you come to terms and understanding as to what Holiness is, you will remain at a loss. The implication of me setting the separation between man and God, exactly concludes the attributes of God i.e. the Characteristics. God is everything GOOD that we are not. When many of the apostles are explaining God, or talking to him they always refer to him being Holy, or referring to his holiness.

John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him"

If you know well about the holiness and the goodness of Christ then you know the Holiness of our Lord, for he and Christ are one. (John 10:30)

[Jayyycuuup]

Let's be honest, Shiloh. The above is your response to my question. I asked you if God's Truth is secondary to His Holiness, which you say is first and foremost. Your response to that question was "yes." So, I challenged you to find biblical scripture showing that God's truth is secondary to His holiness. I waited for two days and still nothing. You are correct. It isn't in the Holy Bible. I told you that God's name is Yawheh (I am who am). And this is what our Catechism says:

And I demonstrated that God's holiness is His chief attribute. I don't have provide a single verse that says "God's truth is secondary to His holiness" for my statement to be true. The Bible, over and over tells us that God's holiness is His chief attribute. You can see it over and over again in how people experience God's presence. It is love or truth they experience, it is His holiness. It is the first thing you encounter when you encounter God's presence. His holiness is dealth with and expounded on more than any other attribute in Scripture. The Bible presents God first as holy and unapproachable without something to cover us and protect us from the sheer power of His holiness. That has been demonstrated to you over and over.

Shiloh, all Jacob did was quote God's holiness in the Bible. Here, below is scripture of God's Truth in the Bible. And the list is longer than what Jacob quoted from Scripture. So, what does this tell you? It tells you that you should listen to Jesus who said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." Jesus never said, " I am the Way first and foremost, etc." He is all of them.

Genesis 24:27 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I [being] in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren.

Genesis 32:10 I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan; and now I am become two bands.

Genesis 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Deuteronomy 32:4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

Psalms 25:10 All the paths of the LORD [are] mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psalm 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Psalm 33:4 For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth.

Psalm 44:3 O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.

Psalm 57:3 He shall send from heaven, and save me [from] the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.

Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Psalm 100:5 For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.

Psalm 108:4 For thy mercy [is] great above the heavens: and thy truth [reacheth] unto the clouds.

Psalm 117:2 For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD [endureth] for ever. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Isaiah 25:1 O LORD, thou [art] my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful [things; thy] counsels of old [are] faithfulness [and] truth.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 15:6 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Eph. 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

I hate to break this to you Selene but I shortened the list. I could have also quoted scripture from Holy as well.... I shortened my list quite a bit not to mention the fact its not holding into comparison, God is both of wisdom, truth, love and holiness. These all are apart of him.

[Jayyycuuup]

Let's be honest, Shiloh. The above is your response to my question. I asked you if God's Truth is secondary to His Holiness, which you say is first and foremost. Your response to that question was "yes." So, I challenged you to find biblical scripture showing that God's truth is secondary to His holiness. I waited for two days and still nothing. You are correct. It isn't in the Holy Bible. I told you that God's name is Yawheh (I am who am). And this is what our Catechism says:

And I demonstrated that God's holiness is His chief attribute. I don't have provide a single verse that says "God's truth is secondary to His holiness" for my statement to be true. The Bible, over and over tells us that God's holiness is His chief attribute. You can see it over and over again in how people experience God's presence. It is love or truth they experience, it is His holiness. It is the first thing you encounter when you encounter God's presence. His holiness is dealth with and expounded on more than any other attribute in Scripture. The Bible presents God first as holy and unapproachable without something to cover us and protect us from the sheer power of His holiness. That has been demonstrated to you over and over.

Shiloh, all Jacob did was quote God's holiness in the Bible. Here, below is scripture of God's Truth in the Bible. And the list is longer than what Jacob quoted from Scripture. So, what does this tell you? It tells you that you should listen to Jesus who said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." Jesus never said, " I am the Way first and foremost, etc." He is all of them.

Genesis 24:27 And he said, Blessed [be] the LORD God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I [being] in the way, the LORD led me to the house of my master's brethren.

Genesis 32:10 I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan; and now I am become two bands.

Genesis 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

Deuteronomy 32:4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he.

Psalms 25:10 All the paths of the LORD [are] mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

Psalm 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Psalm 33:4 For the word of the LORD [is] right; and all his works [are done] in truth.

Psalm 44:3 O send out thy light and thy truth: let them lead me; let them bring me unto thy holy hill, and to thy tabernacles.

Psalm 57:3 He shall send from heaven, and save me [from] the reproach of him that would swallow me up. Selah. God shall send forth his mercy and his truth.

Psalm 89:14 Justice and judgment [are] the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Psalm 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

Psalm 100:5 For the LORD [is] good; his mercy [is] everlasting; and his truth [endureth] to all generations.

Psalm 108:4 For thy mercy [is] great above the heavens: and thy truth [reacheth] unto the clouds.

Psalm 117:2 For his merciful kindness is great toward us: and the truth of the LORD [endureth] for ever. Praise ye the LORD.

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

Isaiah 25:1 O LORD, thou [art] my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful [things; thy] counsels of old [are] faithfulness [and] truth.

Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 15:6 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Eph. 5:9 For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

I hate to break this to you Selene but I shortened the list. I could have also quoted scripture from Holy as well.... I shortened my list quite a bit not to mention the fact its not holding into comparison, God is both of wisdom, truth, love and holiness. These all are apart of him.

I checked both. Truth was still longer than Holiness and like you, I did not quote everything on Truth.. Below is the weblink on Holiness:

http://www.bluelette...=Holiness&t=KJV

I also checked the word list for "holy" and not all of them applied to God, but also to objects such as holy temple or holy ground.

LOL you missed the whole point I was trying to make. The bible is 100% truth, even if it says something about Christ or God once..... You can take that to heart. Like when Christ says my father and I are one in John 10:30, There is a trinity. The list could go on about something else for instance Christ says in John 14:28 That God is greater than I... This statement does not segregate the trinity.

[Jayyycuuup]

May I ask where your argument lies ? Gods holiness does separate himself from man, but the presence of this is always brought forth when speaking to him, or when you can feel his presence. Many of the apostles say the same thing.

[Jayyycuuup]

May I ask where your argument lies ? Gods holiness does separate himself from man, but the presence of this is always brought forth when speaking to him, or when you can feel his presence. Many of the apostles say the same thing.

The issue was never about God's holiness being separate from man. The issue was God's holiness being number one (first and foremost) while God's truth, mercy, love, wisdom, and everthing else came secondary. Shiloh believes that God's holiness is first and God's Truth, wisdom, love, mercy, goodness, and everything else is SECOND. I disagree. God is Holy and God is Truth. He is ONE. There is nothing SECONDARY in Him. He is the fullness of everything that is holy, truth, wisdom, and goodness. If God's Truth is SECONDARY, then who has the fullness of all Truth? In other words, whose Truth is FIRST if God's Truth is secondary?

I agree with you, absolutely... God is in all one. Nothing is upheld above the other.

[Guest shiloh357]

May I ask where your argument lies ? Gods holiness does separate himself from man, but the presence of this is always brought forth when speaking to him, or when you can feel his presence. Many of the apostles say the same thing.

The issue was never about God's holiness being separate from man. The issue was God's holiness being number one (first and foremost) while God's truth, mercy, love, wisdom, and everthing else came secondary. Shiloh believes that God's holiness is first and God's Truth, wisdom, love, mercy, goodness, and everything else is SECOND. I disagree. God is Holy and God is Truth. He is ONE. There is nothing SECONDARY in Him. He is the fullness of everything that is holy, truth, wisdom, and goodness. If God's Truth is SECONDARY, then who has the fullness of all Truth? In other words, whose Truth is FIRST if God's Truth is secondary?

This proves that you don't understand the argument I am making. That I say God's holiness is His chief attribute does NOT mean that God is more holy than He is truth. God's truth is holy. God's love is holy. God mercy is holy. All of God's attributes are held in state of holiness because they are not tainted with sin. William G. T. Shedd writes in his systematic theology:

Holiness occupies a place second to none among the communicable attributes.

“If any,” says Charnocke, “this attribute hath an excellency above the other perfections of God. There are some attributes of God which we prefer because of our interest in them, and the relation they bear to as: as we esteem his goodness before his power, and his mercy whereby he relieves us, before his justice whereby he punisheth us; so there are some that God delights to honor because of their excellency. Where do you find any other attribute trebled in the praise of it? ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts.”’

Therein, I think lies the problem. You prefer the love of God over His holiness, and that is why you have a problem with the holiness of God being His foremost attribute. That is the way a lot of people react. The holiness of God is offensive because it is intolerant. The holiness of God doesn’t respect sinful lifestyles like homosexuality. It doesn’t attempt to affirm them The holiness of God calls homosexuality a sin and an abomination and calls on homosexuals to repent of their sin. It forces man to see Himself the way he looks to a holy God. It points to God’s law and says YOU are sinner. It points to moral wretchedness of man. God’s holiness is the first attribute that a sinner has to recognize and thus must repent of sin before He can appropriate God’s love, mercy or forgiveness. You can experience NOTHING of God until you first deal with your sin in the presence of a holy God.