enoob57 Posted July 16, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 16, 2012 This verse does not cover all who leave. To believe so is to be misguided. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but faith is lost through deception and that deception through disobedience to that which is revealed. The one who falls away never realizes what they lost. It all seems natural to them but they did not take heed how they heard but let his words fall to the ground and that which they seemed to have was taken from them. Those John spoke about was in the direct context of those who never believed in the first place and were not of us. The two are completely separate in nature. Consider the parable of the sewer. Those upon stony ground believed but only for a time then fell away. Just as there is coming a huge falling away just prior to the man of perdition being revealed. It sounds to me that viole just did not do diligence in maintaining her relationship and the relationship was lost. Bummer. Gary Gary I believe in eternal security of the believer because it is certain that what God's Word teaches... Not maybe if I do my share I will make it! It seems such a clear doctrine of Scripture but ... there are those who disagree! Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 17, 2012 This verse does not cover all who leave. To believe so is to be misguided. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but faith is lost through deception and that deception through disobedience to that which is revealed. The one who falls away never realizes what they lost. It all seems natural to them but they did not take heed how they heard but let his words fall to the ground and that which they seemed to have was taken from them. Those John spoke about was in the direct context of those who never believed in the first place and were not of us. The two are completely separate in nature. Consider the parable of the sewer. Those upon stony ground believed but only for a time then fell away. Just as there is coming a huge falling away just prior to the man of perdition being revealed. It sounds to me that viole just did not do diligence in maintaining her relationship and the relationship was lost. Bummer. Gary Gary I believe in eternal security of the believer because it is certain that what God's Word teaches... Not maybe if I do my share I will make it! It seems such a clear doctrine of Scripture but ... there are those who disagree! Love, Steven I too believe in eternal security of the believer. One who turns toward God in repentance and comes under the Lordship of Jesus Christ is golden. No one can take them out of his hand. We must do our part. The just are they who are justified and according to scripture that means they live by faith. Those who live in the faith and die in faith shall be saved. Those who do not will be eternally lost for they believed not the witness God gave of his Son. I refuse to comfort anyone who display works of unbelief with some false interpretation of eternal security that doesn't exist for unbelievers who walk in darkness. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted July 18, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Hello Celcius, So you are skeptic when an atheist turns to Christ but if a Christian were to turn atheist it makes sense? Being on the opposing side I see where you are comming from since your not a Believer, but keep in mind that we Christians also have the same suspicion when people turn their back on God, It leads us to believe that they were mislead. Precisely, which is why I made the point I did. I think you and I are pretty much on the same page with this one. Not exactly, I wasnt saying, I was putting it up for debate. If you have one you have the other, logically it doesnt make sense to say if an atheist turns to Christ than he wasnt a true atheist, it would be like saying a Christian who turns atheist isnt a true Christian. Either your an atheist or your not, no inbetween. If you can propose otherwise I would like to hear what you have to say, otherwise your wasting your breath. If there even is a such thing as a "true atheist" and thats what you are, please explain. ~thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Maybe I am really cynical or too cold (let me know), but I hear more Christians wishing Jesus to come back in their lifetime than actually hoping to die. Since the final effect is the same, I suspect that the formers have some doubts, too.... Yes And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, Jude 1:14 The Final Effect Is The Same For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 Jerusalem Town~! The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:16 One Way Or The Other I Will Be There And That For Believers Is Great Joy Indeed You See I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zephaniah 3:12-17 ~ Got A Ticket To Ride? And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:13-14 Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 And Be Blessed Beloved Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 .... Once we accept this fact, we come to some logical conclusions. For instance, if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP. Maybe I am a bit insensitive, but I do not understand the logic of praying to be cured from a bad disease if I am sure I would go to heaven. Even if there were 1 in a trillion chances that I will become an atheist later in life, the risk would still be incommensurably high if I put on the table the expected (infinite) reward/punishement. It is just a simple mathematical calculation. It is interesting how we can grow attached to this life. God made it quite good don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 18, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 For instance, if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP. Maybe I am a bit insensitive, but I do not understand the logic of praying to be cured from a bad disease if I am sure I would go to heaven. Is this how you felt when you believed yourself to be a Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 18, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 18, 2012 1 Jn 2:19 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. NKJV This verse does not cover all who leave. To believe so is to be misguided. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but faith is lost through deception and that deception through disobedience to that which is revealed. The one who falls away never realizes what they lost. It all seems natural to them but they did not take heed how they heard but let his words fall to the ground and that which they seemed to have was taken from them. Those John spoke about was in the direct context of those who never believed in the first place and were not of us. The two are completely separate in nature. Consider the parable of the sewer. Those upon stony ground believed but only for a time then fell away. Just as there is coming a huge falling away just prior to the man of perdition being revealed. It sounds to me that viole just did not do diligence in maintaining her relationship and the relationship was lost. Bummer. Gary Seeing how we are speaking of context 1 Jn 2:15-23 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world — the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life — is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. Deceptions of the Last Hour 18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. NKJV John sets the tone with the dangers of being here ... Little children 'IS' us, them ~ all that exist in Christ after that writing. The simple understanding is this world is not our home and it is filled with spirits of antichrists trying to allure us into making it our home. They use the creative beauty of God along with their self fulfillment to produce a perversion of life that is very appealing to anyone even the redeemed of God! The real key to not being affected by this is the denying of self and adherence to what you take into yourself-> that extra $100.00 in your pocket or 2 hours of intimacy in the closet with your Lord. We all work out our salvation in fear and trembling due to the to the fact that we have sin still in us (our flesh) that wars against us to have party spirit in the world and the overwhelming influence to do so around us! So no Gary it is all inclusive and speaking to those that circulate around us and testify they love Christ and gobble the world up like a 5 cent mint saying God gave this to me to enjoy/really - God here is speaking through John saying not to love this world (but) realize the perversion and draw to the place where God 'IS' preparing for us (where no perversion can be) and this 'IS' Life we have in Him right here and now... The true faith is one that can live in what 'IS' promised and be satisfied in the waiting for it to be... So those who go out from us never were in this true faith in His Word which promises Jn 14:2-6 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know." 5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. NKJV please understand the OUT denotes as a primary preposition relating to origin... we shall know them by their fruits but their judgment belongs to Christ Who looks upon the heart... God says this of His Children Ro 8:38-39 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. NKJV The question remains if God has so empowered us... how then do they go out unless they are not empowered? Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 18, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 18, 2012 But if I am wrong today, it is possible and likely that I was right in the past and I was really having personal relationships with God. That would make me a real ex-Christian, wouldn't it? NO that would make God a liar.... And there you have it Viole. Either you were a real Christian or God is a liar, and God isn't a liar, is HE, Viole? Of course not. To say that God is a liar is logically absurd, especially when He is defined as incapable to lie. If He exist he cannot lie, if He doesn't then He cannot lie, either, obviously. As absurd as saying that we hate God. How can I hate an entity in whose plausability I do not even remotely believe? I might hate the idea (I do not) but that is different from hating the object of the idea. People who hate the allmighty or disobey Him but still believe in Him or even saw Him (e.g. Satan or Adam, allegedly) are simply not very smart, in my opinion. If instead of Eve we had Viole, we would all still be in the garden of Eden Fact is nobody has the guarantee that she will never change her mind. I might start believing again, who knows? In other words, when someone says she is saved (or lost) should add the word "currently" (unless you are a Universalist, of course). Once we accept this fact, we come to some logical conclusions. For instance, if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP. Maybe I am a bit insensitive, but I do not understand the logic of praying to be cured from a bad disease if I am sure I would go to heaven. Even if there were 1 in a trillion chances that I will become an atheist later in life, the risk would still be incommensurably high if I put on the table the expected (infinite) reward/punishement. It is just a simple mathematical calculation. But you are right. At that time I did not want to die ASAP, so maybe I was not a real (rational) Christian, really Maybe I am really cynical or too cold (let me know), but I hear more Christians wishing Jesus to come back in their lifetime than actually hoping to die. Since the final effect is the same, I suspect that the formers have some doubts, too. Ciao - viole That is the whole point Viole by saying you were a Christian (your judgment) when God says not possible due to the sealing of The Holy Spirit to all who believe (His Judgment) and the reality is revealed after death... But on this side He speaks to us in guidance and the viable options to understanding what we are seeing... Love, Steven PS- D9 you really need to work on your reading comprehension it is deplorable... How do you ever expect find God when you pervert sentence structure as you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 18, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 18, 2012 .... Once we accept this fact, we come to some logical conclusions. For instance, if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP. Maybe I am a bit insensitive, but I do not understand the logic of praying to be cured from a bad disease if I am sure I would go to heaven. Even if there were 1 in a trillion chances that I will become an atheist later in life, the risk would still be incommensurably high if I put on the table the expected (infinite) reward/punishement. It is just a simple mathematical calculation. It is interesting how we can grow attached to this life. God made it quite good don't you think? I am not sure. I would have preferred to be born in Heaven directly, probably. Ciao - viole That which began in Heaven is NOT afforded repentance.. that which is born here 'IS'... Had you got your wish your fate would be sealed as the angle's! They in fear await judgment... you in no fear(?) await repentance... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted July 18, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,387 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,563 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted July 18, 2012 You know loved one fear is a funny thing Probably that same number of people have no fear of darkness... yet put them deep in the caverns of the earth with the lighting they brought with them to explore those caverns and all failed and in that darkness of reality all would panic in undeniable fear and anguish. Bravery is an easy thing to fain or fake when there is nothing to test it Now humor me just a minute and say you have died and all of a sudden all that you believed, all melted away into nothingness, and only that which is true remained with you and you are standing before the very One you deny now... and then to realize that you have no advocate for you called Him a Liar.... oh I know your not down in the caverns exploring and you are very brave in the fact that there is no such thing as darkness... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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