Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism

[nebula]

For instance, if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP. Maybe I am a bit insensitive, but I do not understand the logic of praying to be cured from a bad disease if I am sure I would go to heaven.

Is this how you felt when you believed yourself to be a Christian?

No, as I said im my post. But either I was not a real Christian or I was not thinking rationally about the consequences. Maybe. I would be in heaven now, if I did not take those antibiotics from those evolutionary scientists, who knows?

Ciao

- viole

I am not understanding your thoughts here, Viole. You argue as if you never had Christian beliefs, then when asked about it you throw spiteful comebacks.

And I never saw you answer whether you had ever come to a place of repenting (of your sins) and receiving (Jesus as Lord and Savior)?

[nebula]

For instance, if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP. Maybe I am a bit insensitive, but I do not understand the logic of praying to be cured from a bad disease if I am sure I would go to heaven.

Is this how you felt when you believed yourself to be a Christian?

No, as I said im my post. But either I was not a real Christian or I was not thinking rationally about the consequences. Maybe. I would be in heaven now, if I did not take those antibiotics from those evolutionary scientists, who knows?

I am not understanding your thoughts here, Viole. You argue as if you never had Christian beliefs, then when asked about it you throw spiteful comebacks.

And I never saw you answer whether you had ever come to a place of repenting (of your sins) and receiving (Jesus as Lord and Savior)?

I really do not see where I have been spiteful.

Maybe it just came across that way - the problem with lack of body language.

I just think, now, that I was deluding myself. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, and repented from my sins. I was, what you would call now, a fundamentalistic Christian. I did not even believe in evolution and I was a YEC. I could feel the presence of the Spirit in me. And I was dead sure that I would go to Heaven when I die. The real think.

But, again, I think I deluded myself.

Or perhaps you fell out of love.

And I was not thinking rationally, since I was also afraid of dying like anyone else; which is a bit absurd if you think about it. Either you are sure to be saved or you aren't. If you are, there are no logical grounds to be afraid to die.

If you thought you were saved yet were afraid to die, why did you state: "... if I were sure to be saved, I would actually wish to die ASAP."

[gdemoss]

The question remains if God has so empowered us... how then do they go out unless they are not empowered?

Love, Steven

Simple, God gives power, we must use it. God gives light, we must walk in it. God provides for all our needs, we must accept and use the provisions of God or suffer the loss of relationship with him.

Gary

[Guest ninhao]

I am not sure. I would have preferred to be born in Heaven directly, probably.

Revelation indicates God will dwell with us here on this(new) Earth in the next life. Not away from it. Maybe you would have preferred to not be born until that time. Not sure what the bible says about that. Make an appointment with yourself for then.

[enoob57]

This verse does not cover all who leave. To believe so is to be misguided. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but faith is lost through deception and that deception through disobedience to that which is revealed. The one who falls away never realizes what they lost. It all seems natural to them but they did not take heed how they heard but let his words fall to the ground and that which they seemed to have was taken from them. Those John spoke about was in the direct context of those who never believed in the first place and were not of us. The two are completely separate in nature. Consider the parable of the sewer. Those upon stony ground believed but only for a time then fell away. Just as there is coming a huge falling away just prior to the man of perdition being revealed. It sounds to me that viole just did not do diligence in maintaining her relationship and the relationship was lost. Bummer.

Gary

Gary I believe in eternal security of the believer because it is certain that what God's Word teaches... Not maybe if I do my share I will make it!

It seems such a clear doctrine of Scripture but ... there are those who disagree! Love, Steven

I too believe in eternal security of the believer. One who turns toward God in repentance and comes under the Lordship of Jesus Christ is golden. No one can take them out of his hand. We must do our part. The just are they who are justified and according to scripture that means they live by faith. Those who live in the faith and die in faith shall be saved. Those who do not will be eternally lost for they believed not the witness God gave of his Son. I refuse to comfort anyone who display works of unbelief with some false interpretation of eternal security that doesn't exist for unbelievers who walk in darkness.

Gary

I thought to visit with you on one more thought-

1 Co 5:1-5

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NKJV

Probably the most telling in this area of understanding... note the grossness of the sin and Paul's activity of mind toward this! We sit simply in the inability to discern the heart though we are told to examine the fruit to know what it might be as to fellowship with or not...

Jas 5:7-8

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

NKJV

Simply we cannot see the heart and evidently the fruit can be impossible for us to see or non existent (certainly it is true of the one thief and we know God 'IS' no respecter of persons)... so by our own limitations we are not to judge in regards to eternal outcome but as to fellowship with yes! If they are practicing sin treat them as the unsaved- love them by witness and giving but do not relax your heart to them in fellowship. Love, Steven

[gdemoss]

This verse does not cover all who leave. To believe so is to be misguided. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but faith is lost through deception and that deception through disobedience to that which is revealed. The one who falls away never realizes what they lost. It all seems natural to them but they did not take heed how they heard but let his words fall to the ground and that which they seemed to have was taken from them. Those John spoke about was in the direct context of those who never believed in the first place and were not of us. The two are completely separate in nature. Consider the parable of the sewer. Those upon stony ground believed but only for a time then fell away. Just as there is coming a huge falling away just prior to the man of perdition being revealed. It sounds to me that viole just did not do diligence in maintaining her relationship and the relationship was lost. Bummer.

Gary

Gary I believe in eternal security of the believer because it is certain that what God's Word teaches... Not maybe if I do my share I will make it!

It seems such a clear doctrine of Scripture but ... there are those who disagree! Love, Steven

I too believe in eternal security of the believer. One who turns toward God in repentance and comes under the Lordship of Jesus Christ is golden. No one can take them out of his hand. We must do our part. The just are they who are justified and according to scripture that means they live by faith. Those who live in the faith and die in faith shall be saved. Those who do not will be eternally lost for they believed not the witness God gave of his Son. I refuse to comfort anyone who display works of unbelief with some false interpretation of eternal security that doesn't exist for unbelievers who walk in darkness.

Gary

I thought to visit with you on one more thought-

1 Co 5:1-5

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NKJV

Probably the most telling in this area of understanding... note the grossness of the sin and Paul's activity of mind toward this! We sit simply in the inability to discern the heart though we are told to examine the fruit to know what it might be as to fellowship with or not...

Jas 5:7-8

7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. 8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

NKJV

Simply we cannot see the heart and evidently the fruit can be impossible for us to see or non existent (certainly it is true of the one thief and we know God 'IS' no respecter of persons)... so by our own limitations we are not to judge in regards to eternal outcome but as to fellowship with yes! If they are practicing sin treat them as the unsaved- love them by witness and giving but do not relax your heart to them in fellowship. Love, Steven

Many speak of this idea that we cannot see the heart and I agree as only God can see the heart. We, at best, can hear what comes out of the mouth as out of the mouth the heart speaks and as you say we can see the fruit. That said, God sees the heart and I have his spirit in me. He reveals to me that which I need to know for his purpose about anothers heart.

Gary

[Jayyycuuup]

[

---------Dear Celsius, thank you for taking the time to respond so diligentally, for that I will do the same, so lets begin

c-I'll try and explain my position more clearly. I think that it is possible for a true Christian to slide into atheism, for any number of possible reasons, and I think it is equally true that an atheist can discover God and become a Christian. Are we on the same page?

-------Yes, very much so.

c-I mentioned Peter Hitchens earlier and pointed out that he had never quite been able to get over the fear of Hell. He'd lost belief in God, but always remained fearful that if he was wrong then the lake of fire awaited him. This fear eventually led him back to God (see: The Rage Against God, 2010). So was he a total atheist, or did there exist a gray area in his mind? There was a fellow at another forum whom I chatted with quite a bit on this problem of fear that some atheists exhibit and he acknowledged that this fear possessed him as well, and he could not say that he would never return to a belief in God. I too once felt this fear, but it has since left me.

------So being wrong has never crossed your mind since? May I ask what led you away from God? I must say, that I dont believe fear should be something to lead you to God for that should be a decision of your choosing. Although, not being saved is something that I worry about with unbelivers its not something I preach for it would be wrong since only God knows the heart, and God is the Ultimate Judge. I truly wish that there would be something that will aspire you to want to know God, but like I said thats something your gonna have to decide on your own.

c-I have never thought in terms of ‘true atheism’ as opposed to ‘false atheism’. If someone holds belief in one or more deities then I judge them religious, if they reject belief in all deities, then I acknowledge their atheism; but not all atheists hold the same degree of lack of belief. A few are willing to acknowledge that they cannot entirely rule out the possibility of God. A few are quite adamant that they know God does not exist, and the others lie somewhere between. Even among Christians there are those who are willing to consider the possibility that God does not exist, or at least wonder whether the type of God they have been taught to believe in exists.

--------- You said it right there, quote "lack of belief," you choose not to listen, and you choose not to turn your back on God. Weather or not you have came to this conclusion is something I am wondering. Did you know that the bible accually talks about scientists? In John 3:31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. Some might say that the last part is talking about Jesus and while this may stand true it also is talking about man. (See Gospel, John 3; 13)

c-It is my belief that belief exists on a continuum. Richard Dawkins expresses the same view, or perhaps, it is more accurate to say that he has influenced me in this regard. He constructed a seven point scale which is published in The God Delusion, are you familiar with it?

---------- I am not familiar with the Book The God Delusion because I dont dive into views that contadicts my beliefs. Although nothing can or will lead me away from my faith, I just dont find the need to read such a thing. But I am familiar with Richard Dawkins. He disclaims God but he cannot disprove his existance in any way, most of all I have not came across how he suggests the world came to be. Do you know, or can you explain what your idealism is on this?

Edited July 20, 2012 by your friend Jacob

[enoob57]

Many speak of this idea that we cannot see the heart and I agree as only God can see the heart. We, at best, can hear what comes out of the mouth as out of the mouth the heart speaks and as you say we can see the fruit. That said, God sees the heart and I have his spirit in me. He reveals to me that which I need to know for his purpose about anothers heart.

Gary

That is correct and that 'IS' why He says here not to judge others...

Mt 7:1-5

7 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged;

and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the

speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you

say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own

eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to

remove the speck from your brother's eye.

NKJV

For he never intends for us to know any other heart than His Own! And having this knowledge of

His Perfect heart through the work of The Holy Spirit and His Word we are changed into non-

condemn-ers but encourager's to place the eternal pages of His word into actions that we may

be formed by this into beings that please-> Him<- so that what we are now in practice we may

keep. Remaining as reflections of the work of The Son for all eternity unto Glory to The Father!

Love, Steven

[Jayyycuuup]

------So being wrong has never crossed your mind since?

I think R.Dawkins nailed it pretty nicely when asked "what if you are wrong?".

Everybody can be wrong. But the problem is that it is not only a question of God vs. no-God. It is a question that involves thousands of possible gods, too. And the only bias I can see in chosing a god is when and where we are born, therefore this first choice is mainly an accident of birth, and there is no complelling reason to choose a god and not the other just because we grew up in a certain environment.

I (and you) might be wrong about God, Allah, Vishnu, etc. etc. equally, and I am perfectly aware of it. What should I do? Throw a coin, for lack of better evidence? The only rational criterium I see is to choose the God with the hottest hell, but this is also self defeating.

So, being wrong about Allah never crossed your mind?

Ciao

- viole

No because you can look back in history (documents) and find his origins, thus giving me the knowledge that he is faulty. Try tracing back God the Father, guaranty you will come up empty!

[Jayyycuuup]

Did you know that the bible accually talks about scientists? In John 3:31 "He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. Some might say that the last part is talking about Jesus and while this may stand true it also is talking about man. (See Gospel, John 3; 13)

No, I think it is clearly not referring to scientists. Sorry to disagree.

It is my belief that belief exists on a continuum. Richard Dawkins expresses the same view, or perhaps, it is more accurate to say that he has influenced me in this regard. He constructed a seven point scale which is published in The God Delusion, are you familiar with it?

I am not familiar with the Book The God Delusion because I dont dive into views that contadicts my beliefs.

Ah, there we differ. I believe it is important to remain informed. I do read writers who express Christian views. I even read the Bible; but back to

The God Delusion

. Dawkins came up with a 7 point chart delineating belief, which I think is valid regardless of one's position vis-a-vis God.

1. Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, ‘I do not believe, I

know

.’

2. Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. ‘I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there.’

3. Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. ‘I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.’

4. Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. ‘God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.’

5. Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. ‘I don’t know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be sceptical.’

6. Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’

7. Strong atheist. ‘I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung “

knows

” there is one.’

Dawkins considers himself a 6 (though I have frequently heard him say he is closer to a 6.999). My ex-wife was a 3 on the scale, but now she appears to have shifted into greater belief. Most atheists I have encountered consider themselves a 6 on the scale. Very few atheists say 7 describes them. So it is not black and white. Atheists adhere to a range of beliefs vis-a-vis the probability of God. Your claim that "Either your an atheist or your not, no inbetween", does not take this into account.

... I am familiar with Richard Dawkins. He disclaims God but he cannot disprove his existance in any way ...

Dawkins claim is that he

cannot

disprove God, so he would agree with you; but he would add that the world gives him absolutely no reason to believe in God.

So I take it this is how you prioritize Christians? Put them on a scale and go from there? See at what level there certainty is and try to pick their belief apart? Well its self defeating since you cannot dissprove God so whats the point in using this scale?