Popular Atheist Blogger Announces Conversion to Catholicism

[Guest shiloh357]

_{I tried to make the point that i did not choose not to believe in God. The loss of belief just happened. I didn't wake up one morning and decide I wasn't going to believe anymore. I don't think atheism comes about that way, not as a rule. Loss of belief is often gradual and typically stretches out over many years.}

_{It is always a choice. You may have not made the choice at the spur of the moment but you still made the choice.. You are still making the choice even now.}

[Jayyycuuup]

No because you can look back in history (documents) and find his origins, thus giving me the knowledge that he is faulty. Try tracing back God the Father, guaranty you will come up empty!

I came up with evidence that human perception of God evolved over time and the Bible reflects these changes. Thus, Yahweh is seen to support slavery, harsh social justice, multiple wives, and so on. Contemporary Christians believe God is against these things, so clearly the concept of God has changed since the time of the Hebrews.

May I ask how you came up with this evidence? The bible doesnt suggest such a thing so I dont know where you got your material....please explain.

I think it does.

I gave a brief explanation: "Yahweh is seen to support slavery, harsh social justice, multiple wives, and so on. Contemporary Christians believe God is against these things, so clearly the concept of God has changed since the time of the Hebrews."

Lol you can "think" all you want it comes down to you being right or wrong.

You gave a brief explanation of your interpretation lol. Not what the bible says. That’s why I said where did you get your material? I didn’t ask for you to repeat yourself lol... I want to know where you got your false interpretation.

[Jayyycuuup]

_{I tried to make the point that i did not choose not to believe in God. The loss of belief just happened. I didn't wake up one morning and decide I wasn't going to believe anymore. I don't think atheism comes about that way, not as a rule. Loss of belief is often gradual and typically stretches out over many years.}

_{It is always a choice. You may have not made the choice at the spur of the moment but you still made the choice.. You are still making the choice even now.}

Amen Shiloh!!

[Guest shiloh357]

You may not be grasping my point. Imagine that someone, in all seriousness, said to you, "You can choose to believe in Santa Claus. It is a choice you are making in rejecting belief in him. It is always a choice." I would then turn and ask you whether you indeed could simply make a choice to believe in Santa? Is it possible for you to choose to believe in something that you know does not exist? Atheists sometimes make an argument incorporating the satirical deity called the "Flying Spaghetti Monster". Could you choose to believe in this entity? After all you stated that it always comes down to choice. Are you getting my point? If someone is convinced that some entity does not exist then that person is not like capable of choosing to believe in its existnce.

The difference is that there is no evidence for either Santa or the Spagetti Monster. There is evidence for the existence of God. You have chosen to reject that evidence as evidence for God. It is not a matter of simply believing in a mythical deity that is already known to be mythical. So your comparison doesn't hold up.

Our faith is evidentiary in nature. On that basis is it is rational. It is not the same as believing flying hippos or unicorns. You atheists look for the most ridiculous comparisons and it really amounts to nothing more than charicature of what we believe and not an accurate representation on your part.

Now someone at this forum is likely to jump up and complain that I have just compared God to Santa Claus and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Nothing of the sort has occurred.

Yes it is has.

In order for my argument to carry any oomph I had to find some make-believe beings whom we all agree cannot exist. These two fit that requirement. Is it possible for anyone to choose to really believe in an entity that he knows does not exist?

First of all, it doesn't work as an accurate comparison because in the first place, we don't all agree that God doesn't exist. So using known mythical entities doesn't really address the issue of God's existnce. Secondly, you don't "KNOW" that God doesn't exist. You simply choose to believe that God doesn't exist. Our claims for God's existence do not exist in a vacuum. We have evidence that we beleive demonstrates that the existence of God is not far-fetched, not equal to believing in Santa and we have a rational basis for our faith. But you have to ingore all of that and present a dumbed down approach that states that believing in God is like believing Santa Claus or pink unicorns or spagetti monsters.

The obvious answer is no. It also is impossible for someone who is convinced God does not exist to choose to believe in God. Does anyone not understand that?

Yet, if you are convinced, that speaks to choice. You had other options, but you are convinced against God's existence over and against the opposition conviction of the possibility of God's existence.

[enoob57]

Everyone ... ALL people approach death! I would say wisdom is to watch them as they

witness it's approach and deal with the only choice there 'IS' -> ^{God 'IS'} or _{god is not} ! satan

does all that he can to throw as much in the circle of reasoning (many false gods) and

they are seen clearly to be so YET to apply the same reasoning of santa claus to Jesus

The Christ is an evident desperation on your part to uphold the house of cards satan has

built! Anyone .... ANYONE! can see clearly this childish approach to reason! The depth

of God's Word alone cast everything that comes against it from the circle of reasoning

and you are simply left with your own desperation of an empty valueless life you call

godless existence... Love, Steven

[Jayyycuuup]

I’m not interested in some Godless book, I’m sorry to say.

Jocob, you are not sorry. You are self-censoring. Dan Barker, author of Godless, once believed the same things you believe, except that he believed them so strongly he made it his life mission to preach professionally about God. This book explains why those beliefs fell apart. Not reading his book might be a good way to protect your own beliefs against the knowledge that undermined his. Or maybe he suffered a character flaw. Maybe his arguments are not worthy arguments at all – though they certainly seem persuasive to me.

Hopefully one day you will come to understand why we Christians say its so easy to know God...

Ow! Jacob, I just got out of that boat! God, the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood AND Jesus once fit within my belief system. It is not so easy to believe in those things once other forms of knowledge have displaced them. To return to that belief system, I think, I would first have to forget everything else I’ve learned. It is not that I don't know enough, rather, I have learned too much to continue in Christian belief.

I can honestly say there is no way to persuade me anywhere other than where I am currently Celsius. The things that I have seen and the miracles, are proof enough. Let alone hearing him, this guy can try and rationalize why he's so ignorant, but his dogma wont undermine my belief or anyone else's that I have came across on here. That's one thing that I really appreciate about Worthy, those that believe are very firm in their belief of God and Christ, and I very much respect that.

What's happened is you have been showered in disbelief for so long that it's cast a "blindness" upon you. You'd have to forget everything you think you know. Everything you believe is not substantial evidence because you said so yourself....your belief changes due to new findings, from there you re-evaluate your "belief" (I'm not being rude, this is an honest question, would you consider atheist a belief??) and accept whatever someone has rationalized to be the reason for whatever the occurrence is.

[Guest shiloh357]

I’m not interested in some Godless book, I’m sorry to say.

Jocob, you are not sorry. You are self-censoring. Dan Barker, author of Godless, once believed the same things you believe, except that he believed them so strongly he made it his life mission to preach professionally about God. This book explains why those beliefs fell apart. Not reading his book might be a good way to protect your own beliefs against the knowledge that undermined his. Or maybe he suffered a character flaw. Maybe his arguments are not worthy arguments at all – though they certainly seem persuasive to me.

Hopefully one day you will come to understand why we Christians say its so easy to know God...

Ow! Jacob, I just got out of that boat! God, the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood AND Jesus once fit within my belief system. It is not so easy to believe in those things once other forms of knowledge have displaced them. To return to that belief system, I think, I would first have to forget everything else I’ve learned. It is not that I don't know enough, rather, I have learned too much to continue in Christian belief.

You might had "religion," but you were never a genuine Christian. Being a Christian is not about believing a propositional set of facts or stories or whatever. It is about a relationship with God, which judging from your own posts, you have never really had. It is one thing to grow up with a set of beliefs. It is quite another to know God personally. There are a lot of religious people, people who call themselves "Christians," who have nothing but cultural affinity for the Christian religion. They go to church, they teach Sunday School and sing in the choir. They believe in Jesus, and they assent to basic teachings of the Bible. They participate in the external Christian culture, but they have never actually accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Christianity is about a relationship with God who is knowable, but you have closed yourself off to Him because you have decided to trust in something that is the product of fallible men. God is not anti-science, but God also transcends science. He is not bound to what science says is or is not possible.

[Jayyycuuup]

I don't remember implying that. I never lost interest, not even to this day. That's one of the reasons I am here. What you are doing is attempting to read between the lines, when the best way to get my meaning is simply accepting what I wrote about my own experience. I'll repeat. I searched long and hard for God.

The problem that I have with this Celsius is that God tells us, seek and you will find me, the bible holds 100% truth in it, so there is either something missing or..... you fill in the blanks. I recall questioning you if you were saved and were living the faith. Some people God talks to before they are saved, and tells them He is real. It appears to me that, that's what you were looking for. But how can you expect to have a big change if you don't accept and appreciate the small ones. You must show interest in God if you wish him to favor you. It can't be a one way relationship, seek God and try to learn about him (read the bible) and ask him to reveal himself to you and he will!

Islam promises 72 virgins in the afterlife, plus eternal life! What could be better than that!? It's a wonderful promise, but how should I make myself believe it is true? Frankly, I can't. I require convincing. I can't just decide, willy-nilly, to believe an unsubstantiated proposition. You seem, however, to think such a thing is possible, that a person can just decide to believe in anything they wish. They just have to try hard. Is that what you think?

Similarly I did not decide to stop believing, rather the evidence for belief fell apart and I found myself unable to believe in the things I once unquestioningly accepted. When the current is too strong one simply gets dragged along. It did not matter that I wanted to believe, the evidence did not permit it.

Your taking this somewhere that is off hand. Islam allows men to treat their wives like cattle, beat them to death and sexually assault young children! If you wish to be nasty like them, then be my guest...furthermore, if you date back and look into history you will come to find out that "Allah Ackbar" (don't quote me on the lastname, spelling ect. but I know the history!) was just a man. He held himself above Jesus and considered himself a prophet. Hmm, funny how he is just a ignorant man. The only thing hes gonna give is the seat next to him in hell. (I know this is assuming a lot, but I dont think anyone would be allowed in Heaven if they proclaim themselves above God...look at Satan.) People can believe in anything they wish, it doesn't make it right. It just them ignorant. You believe there is no God, satan, hell, heaven... But there is, just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it non-existent. Just like when a child (a child of God) turns their back on a parent (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit) it doesn't make them disappear, or make their parent's leave. In their perception it does and in their plane of existence it does, but it comes down to reality. And reality suggests (believers know) that God is real, and hes the creator of all...big and small.

LOL I'm sorry I dont mean to be rude, but a funny popped into my head. You said the current was to strong? The population of atheist couldn't whip up a current, I couldn't even swim in that population. lol Getting back to the subject at hand, somebody must have deceived, and confused your way of thinking. That's all I have to say.

That's a question you should ask my son, who recently joined the forum. His handle is 'Fingy'. His perspective you might find interesting. The difference between him and myself is that he never believed in the existence of God. I don't think he finds the prospect of not possessing immortality, depressing.

Stop avoiding the questions Celsius!!! Your driving me bonkers!!! I didn't ask about your son (If I run across him I will be sure to take a look and ask him, whats his user name?) I directed that question to you. But I really do hope you have an open mind as you say to believing in God, and eventually come to terms because from there if your answers get answered and you turn to God so will your son. And that's too more joyful souls, that get to enjoy eternal life

You will just have to take me at my word. I am not making excuses. I can find no reason to believe the things you do. The concept of God has, for me, lost reality. I cannot decide to believe in God anymore than you can decide to believe in the promise of 72 virgins. Neither do I feel that I made a conscious choice to reject belief in God, rather I have the sense that loss of belief was simply imposed by a lack of confirming evidence.

Despite your not liking it I can still apply the Santa analogy to myself. I never made a conscious decision to reject belief in Santa, rather the evidence confirming Santa's existence fell apart, making it impossible for me to believe. In the same vein, the evidence confirming God's existence also fell apart making it impossible to maintain belief.

Like you said, if you weren't searching for someone to tell you your wrong and explain to you God is real, then you would not be here. I hope you find exactly what your looking for. Thank you, you finally said, you decided not to believe. It was a conscious effort to turn away from God. The thing that worry's me most is that I'm afraid the end times are near...And I want you to accept Christ before everything goes down hill. But for you to accept Christ you would have to accept the things he did....and so on. What is your views on Jesus if you don't mind me asking... I can appoint you to somewhere that will prove using history and texts from non-Christians that Christ was real, died on the cross and was resurrected.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, I guess. The only thing is that we can prove Santa doesn't exist...No fat red nosed man has ever visited my house...or anyone else's for that matter. The main thing that sets a separation is that were talking about a religion, and Santa is not a religion. Furthermore, there is no evidence against God's existence, but there is for..... For instance, miracles....biggest proof out there to those who don't believe. Just about the only evidence if your not looking for him, because God leaves a finger print on many things, its up to you to find it... It sets these "finger prints" if you will in your path. For one, this cite is a fingerprint. You weren't brought here by accident, you may say it was your decision but had God not given George (the maker of the cite) the funds and opportunity to create Worthy, it wouldn't exist. And you and I wouldn't be talking right now. If you come to understand this concept your world will be peeled back like a can of sardines (dont know why I used that analogy, I hate Fish!!! LOL )

[Guest shiloh357]

I grew up in the United Church and in my circle I don't recall any minister ever talking about being saved. It wasn't a term I became familiar with till later in life. We were not evangelical. The whole thing still sounds quite alien to me.

There's a big part of the problem. Your pastor never told you about having a relationship with God. Salvation is based on a real relationship and it is free to anyone who truly wants it. That being saved is alien to you is very telling when it comes to what you were taught. There denominations that do not teach salvation, that simply promote a set of propositional beliefs and if you assent to those beliefs and get sprinkled, you are a "Christian." The Bible, which is rarely taught in those kinds of churches, defines what a Christian in terms of relationship, not in terms of having a certain set of beliefs.

No one with a genuine relationship with Christ ever goes back to unbelief. Many of the preachers whom you mention, if you dig deep enough, never had a relationship with God. They had religion, but they never had Christ. Jesus was more of a theological concept or just another biblical figure than a person with whom they had a relationship. I can say that because everyone I know who has left Christianity for something else fits the same basic mold. They ususally come from a very liberal denomination that really got into the meat of Scripture and never taught anyone about the need for salvation. As long as you were sprinkled and took communion, you were considerd a "Christian." The problem is that such teachings never prepared people for the challenges that the world presents to our faith.

I know a guy I used to go to church with who didn't just become an atheist. He is almost militant about it. But even he admits that he never really was a Christian in the biblical sense. He came to our church from the Episcopal denomination and was turned off by the biblical definition of a Christian eventually went off into atheism. Your situation may different, but you and he and many others have one thing in common. You belonged to churches that were weak when it comes to biblical teaching. When your "faith" was challenged, you had nothing, nothing to answer those challenges with.

Jesus, in Mark 4: 3-20, used the analogy of a sower and seed to describe four different kinds of people: The seed is the Word of God and the sower throws the seed on four types of ground

Stony ground - Those who receive the word but it is immediately stolen from them by satan

Shallow soil - Those who receive the Word at first, but when adversity comes, the seed has no deep roots and these people fall away

Soil covered in Weeds - Those who recieve the word, the word takes root, but the cares of the world and the lust for other things (the weeds) choke out the Word.

Good soil - The word takes root, and it produces a harvest.

The question isn't whether or not God has sowed the seed. God has given you His Word. The question is, which kind of soil are you?

[Jayyycuuup]

Here's the thing, back when I was trying to rekindle my belief I was guided by that promise. I had full expectation that God would answer my prayers and reveal himself. Jacob, I expected it. I was counting on it. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you" (Matt 7:7). I knew the passage and I was counting on it to be true. You can try to pin the blame for it not working on me. I know you will do that. You believe so firmly in scripture that you are not willing to consider any other possibility. That's why I thought it would be good for you to read the opening chapters of Barker's book. He was an evangelical preacher before he lost his faith and he too believed in that promise. His prayers of affirmation were not answered either. Was it to you I wrote of another minister who said he'd even prayed to God to take his life rather than let him lose his faith. The man is an atheist now. Jacob, this happens over and over again to people. Losing faith is often very traumatic and is not something many people seek. Many of us find it happens to us against our will.

Rekindle?? So I take it you go through phases? (Up until a few years ago of course) Believing then not believing... But like I said, you were looking for his voice, some of us are given that right off the bat, others, it takes time, faith and patience. God leaves imprints and stows them upon our lives, it's a matter of acknowledging these "imprints" if you will. Your right, because there aren't too many other options Celsius. I know you want me to read that book, but I have enough reading, and praying to do. He lost his faith, and now is influencing others to do the same, shame on him!

I grew up in the United Church and in my circle I don't recall any minister ever talking about being saved. It wasn't a term I became familiar with till later in life. We were not evangelical. The whole thing still sounds quite alien to me.

Being saved is part of the process of finding God, for most that is. Some people, God has a purpose for them in the near future and has a plan of getting their attention. Others must be part of the working process and gain trust, and faith in order to hear the voice of God. You must expect an answer, believe in your heart, seek him, and you will find him. Being Saved is a wonderful thing, through Christ i.e. salvation is how you will receive God's free gift of Eternal life. Show him the same love and respect, and he will bless you. My family is a true testament to Gods power, love, grace etc. I could go for days about what God has done for my family and I. If you wish to hear a few "testimony's" I would be more than happy to share!

I don't know what I was hoping for. I just wanted God to touch my life so I would know he was there. It never happened.

What kind of "need" were you in, if you don't mind me asking. You say you wanted God to touch your life, like correct it?

I did seek God. I am sure I said that earlier. Did I not mention the weeks of prayer and Bible reading? It's all I did for quite a period of time. I was reaching out to God. Saying I did not try belittles the effort I made.

I don't want you to think I am angry. I am not. My sole interest is to impress upon you that despite the promise of Matthew 7:7, despite what you believe, God does not always answer the prayers of those calling out to him.

No you did not mention that. I didn't mean to try and belittle you Celsius, all I want you to do is give it a chance. You think you lost years of your life..... but you didn't. Through accepting Christ as Lord and Savior, it would grant you eternal life! The thing you needed was a mentor, someone to help you through your process of doubt and helplessness. Someone who you can trust and Grow with in the Lord...

I dont think your angry at all, but apparently you are or at least upset, and I'm sorry you feel this way. My interest in all of this it to try and pick you up and lead you back to God. I know that's how you feel Celsius, but your wanting God to do something within your time frame, but your on God's watch, not visa versa. Everything has a time and a place... and maybe this was is a case of that, I honestly dont know...My hope is that you give me, and the rest here at worthy a chance to help you Grow and rekindle your faith in God.