Trinity

[Guest shilou]

Hi Ernie

First of all there is no need for sarcasm. Treat me with dignity and I'll respond in kind. Treat me in an unchristian manner and we will not have a dialog. Here is my problem with what you just said. I'm reading out of the Tanakh which is the OT from it's original Hebrew translation. I was running into all kinds of problems with all the different translations out there which are different so I figured what the heck I'll go to the source. Here is the Hebrew from the original in Exodus 3:13-14 Moses said to God, "When I come to the Israelites and say to them 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, "What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh." He continued, "Thus shall you say to the Israelites, 'Ehyeh sent me to you.' Now in the Hebrew this can be said many different ways in English, I am that I am, I am who I am, I will be what I will will be, etc. So I don't know how all of that fits in with Chirst using the words I am. The first example you used in Proverbs clearly shows two different persons, My name and my Sons name. Or try this Deuteronomy 18:15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet from among your own people, like myself; him you shall heed. and 18 I will raise up a prophet for them from among their own people, like yourself: I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I command him; and if anybody fails to heed the words he speaks in My name, I myself will call him to account. Now I'm not in any way saying I'm rejecting Christ. Luke 10:16 "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." You see that and all the other statements said by Christ Himself cannot be reconciled by Him being God. He is the one sent from God, so therefore how can he be God? What about this Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." So I'm wondering why God would anoint himself, it makes no sense. So I figured I would find out when and where the trinity came from and I did not like what I discovered. I am not putting this out there so everyone can get all up in arms about it. But it is worth looking into if one is curious enough. I figure I'll just stick to the direct Hebrew translation, and the words of Christ without the added text and I should be pretty safe. I would never ever claim to know all the answers, if I did then I would be God which I'm not. Nor do I claim to be a perfect christian, because while I try to learn on a daily basis I am still affected by the traditions and teachings and trappings of being human. Jesus said Mark 12 29 The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 'And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first Commandment. Well if I ignore that then I'm rejecting what Christ said and in which I would be rejecting God and I really don't want to go there. Psalm 110:1 The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool. Obviously Chirst is my King, I'm just not sure that He is my creator. In Mark Christ refers to God as our God like his and ours, David calls Him his Lord to whom God is speaking. When believers pray we do it in Christs name not to Christ. David seemed to understand that we had a Lord and Messiah that was appointed to rule over us one day. Sometimes I wonder if God has many worlds and Christ is our King, in which case that makes Him my great and wonderful Counselor and Savior. God knows how diligently I study. How I refuse to just bounce around the Gospel but read it from front to back. He knows how much time I spend in prayer, so if I'm looking at this wrong I will beg His forgiveness. But Ernie I mean none of it to attack your belief system or theology. I only put it out there with the hope that people would look more into our beliefs. I don't know where you got the me thinking I am so well read. I'm a little obcessive compulsive when it comes to studying history, but well read would not say it.

Love in Yeshua's name

Shilou

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shilou,

I've been studying the history for months so if someone is just willing to look at the history they might come away with some of the same conclusions.

I was being a bit sarcastic with you because of your above statement. I too could boast of MY studies. Between 1975 & 76 I read the Bible through 6 times plus studying the Greek and Hebrew through Strong's Concordance and other reference material. In the last 9 years I have set my heart on knowing Christ and His fulness, and during that time I have been on literally dozens of forums discussing and debating the scriptures. I have spent the last two years studying the "roots" of my worship through the Jews. But I count all my efforts as nothing because it has taken the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to my heart and not just my mind. So I was unimpressed with your 15 months of study. Being sarcastic is probably one of my pitfalls.

You neglected to address this verse:

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesusson addressed additional verses which you need to examine. Also we have this event which reveals all three persons of the Trinity:

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

You doubt that Jesus is the creator? How about these verses:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

John 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father) full of grace and truth.

John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Please give these things your full consideration.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest shadow2b]

Just an FYI the Trinity was adopted by the church in 325 AD. at the Counsil of Nicea. Thats a very long time after Christ was here and is not something Christ said. Also once Christ was made God then Mary became mother of God and was venerated. The Trinity caused much blood shed and after that the empire split. One half believing in the Trinity and the other not. The Roman empire fell, the black plague killed half of Rome, the time was marked by earthquakes, the dark ages resulted, Charlemagne the great was killing off what he called pagans, the crusades came along, and then the inquisitions. I find this to be very important because our first commandment is to not put any other Gods before God. At the time of the developement of the Trinity Egypt, Rome, and the middle East were saturated with trinities. When in Rome do as the Romans.

I become concerned when I put Christ's words up against that of our ideas for instance. Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good? Jesus answered. No one is good-except God alone. This goes all through out the Gospels of Christ, not always the scriptures of Paul, but the words of Christ are much clearer. He never refers to himself as God incarnate. As far as God saying that in Genesis we do not know who He is talking to so is it up to us to assume? In John God gives us His only begotten son, who sits at the right hand of the father. Is it just possible that Jesus is the son of God who sits at the right hand of the father. Christ is our king, our messiah, and our savior but does that make Him our creator? The more I read the Old Testament and the Words of Christ rather then Paul the more I am convinced that Jesus is Jesus and God is God. If you read the original Hebrew God has many Sons in the form of Angels, perhaps Christ is a chosen Son, one who was always there since our beginnings but was a created being. I also have a hard time believing that Christ desired 1000 years of blood shed for this concept to be shoved down peoples throats. This is something everyone should study because if we are calling Jesus God and he is in fact the Son of God then we are putting him before God. Religious systems are an abomination to God and this came from a religious system, not any direction from God or Christ.

I don't plan on arguing this with anyone, there is no point, I've been studying the history for months so if someone is just willing to look at the history they might come away with some of the same conclusions. Just remember it was Christ who said we would hold to our traditions of men, rather then the laws of God and maybe this is just one of those.

Love in Yeshua

Shilou

  WELL ,SHUT MY MOUTH SHILOU---

  FYI--VENERATED==venerable--websters new collegiate dictionary-----deserving to be venerated,--used as a title for an ANGLICAN-archdeacon or for a ROMAN-CATHOLIC WHO HAS BEEN ACCORDED THE LOWEST OF THREE DEGREES OF RECOGNITION FOR SANCTITY..--MADE SACRED ESP.BY RELIGIOUS ORV HISTORICAL ASSOCIATION.--CONVEYING AN IMPRESSION OF AGED GOODNESS AND BENEVOLENCE.--OKEY-DOKEY,MARY WAS A YOUNG VIRGIN CHOSEN BY GOD to be the MOTHER of JESUS,-YESHUA- beginning in LUKE chpt.1.vss25--thru.vs55.--mary was the MOTHER & HIGHLY FAVOURED BY GOD.--vs28,---she was to be blessed above all the women for being CHASTE & faithful to GOD..after she had agreed to be the LORD'S handmaid--vs.38,--she went to elisabeth's house & apparantly the HOLY GHOST HAD ALREADY FALLEN ON HER & SHE HAD CONCIEVED JESUS..vs38b

--vs41- elisabeth was FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST & recognized JESUS IN MARY'S womb & SAID MARY WAS BLESSED AMONG WOMEN.-vs 42.--listen to vs 45.-- elisabeth thru the anointing of THE HOLY-GHOST PROPHESIED THAT --

THERE SHALL BE A PERFORMANCE OF GOD'S WORD--MARY STATED;'' MY SOUL DOTH MAGNIFY THE LORD,AND MY SPIRIT HATH REJOICED IN GOD MY SAVIOUR--NOW could it be said MARY RECOGNIZED HER NEED  TO BE SAVED AND DECLARED AS MUCH????? i  think MARY'S words speak just EXACTLY THAT..MARY was to be called BLESSED among all WOMEN because she gave birth to GOD'S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, HER OWN PERSONAL SAVIOUR AS WELL AS OUR SAVIOUR & that was as far as she was to be considered..-- she was NOT to be BOWED DOWN TO,WORSHIPPED, ASKED TO PRAY FOR US SINNERS NOW & AT THE TIME OF OUR DEATH..her physical body DIED at some time or another, & was BURIED IN A TOMB OR GRAVE SOMEWHERE.. her spirit went to be with GOD THE FATHER & JESUS,YESHUA, her SAVIOUR AS WELL AS OURS...

  DAD ERNIE quoted A LOT of SCRIPTURES of YESHUA SPEAKING & I learned quite a bit from that post..I never put all those [ I AM] quotes by jesus before so THANKS DAD ERNIE

a very good POST..-----

                                           SHALOM

                                           shadow2b

[Guest shilou]

Hi Ernie first of all everyone says the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to them and then they go on to argue the truth. Second if the Holy Spirit were really a motivating factor I would have gotten an apology not a justification for rudeness. But the sarcasm doesn't really matter, I'm not all that touchy. I knew when I posted that some would get upset. As far as Matthew goes I don't see where God saying this is my Son in whom I am well pleased, says this is part of my tri-nature in whom I am well pleased. Isaiah 9:5 Tanakh For a child has been born to us, A son has been given us. And authourity has settled on his shoulders. He has been nemed "  The Mighty God is planning grace, See it was changed in our version to just Mighty God. But in the Hebrew Jesus is a plan of grace from God. I only once again point any of this out because perhaps like everyone else we have a flaw in our belief system. You also used John which is a good Gospel but the history of it is shaky, Blind pointed out four pages ago that there are alot of different translations out there of John. Also some scholars do not believe John even wrote it. Other scholars point out that the Gospel of John was written in hind sight and is not the exact wording of Christ.

At the end of Christ's life He said Mark 15:15 "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. When I read that and I do take Christ's words themselves very seriously, I think what did He mean by that. He could not have meant the NT because it did not exist. Nor did He say write a new Gospel, He meant the OT, the one He quoted from. Most of the debating we have now days is from the NT. One Gospel of John was wrote in 70 AD and was called the signs Gospel, they credit more than one author but with a question mark. I don't know what the question mark means. I think by signs Gospel they mean revelation. The actual Gospel of John was written between 90-100 AD. There was also a gospel of Thomas, James, Mary Magdalene, Peter none of which we have. Theres alot more than that and the changing and taking things out and putting things in has a very long history. So here we are completely dependent on people who a long time ago made countless decisions for us only to further their own agenda's. I also have a difficult time with the history of the church fathers who were making these decisions. God has punished that organization over and over even in our current times, but they fail to see it as coming from God. I just recently decided to take Christ's words for what He said without trying to read into everything. Christ said why do you call me good? No one is good but the Father. Christ said that in and of himself He can do nothing. I do believe Christ is my Savior and I do believe as He says that He was appointed to be that, and I do believe He was sent by the Father as He claims. And I do believe that the Holy Spirit directed me on this path of learning for a purpose. And I do believe that in order for me to take everyone elses words literally then I would have to go through the Gospels of Christ and scratch out everything He said in order to make it all fit. And I am not willing to do that.

The Muslims have the same problem, they I believe truly want to serve the one true God. But because they are unwilling to look at their own history they follow along with what Mohammed said. The Koran is a mixture of the times they lived in and the OT. Allah was a sun god at the time Mohammed came up with the Islam religion. He was also part of a tri, with the moon god, and the morning star. Mohammed also claimed to be from tribe of Kedar which was a son of Ishmael. What does scripture say will happen. Jeremiah 2:9-12 Oh, I will go on accusing you declares the Lord. And I will accuse your children's children! Just cross over to the isles of the Kittim and look, send to Kedar and observe carefully; see if aught like this has ever happened: Has any nation changed its gods. Even though they are no-gods? But My people has exchanged its glory for what can do no good. Be appalled, O heavens, at this; Be horrified, utterly dazed!

The Jews refuse to acknowledge the Messiah and the simple fact that he fulfilled scripture. We as Christians on the other hand knowing full well where our holidays came from continue to practice them and say it's ok because God will forgive us or now they have a different meaning. We are completely arrogant thinking we have it all right and everyone else is wrong. None of us will look into our own shortcomings because of vanity, not because God said so. Even within Christianity we have so many different fractions because nobody can agree what it all means. When all is said and done I believe God will wash away all of our ignorance, and we will all be amazed that we are all wrong to some extent. It is that which keeps me humble before God. Every time I pray to God it is in Christ's name as He instructed me to do, I only go to the Father through Christ, as that is the only way to get there. Anyway this has gotten long. I once again only put this out there so that others may be intrigued to look at this whole thing. If they don't want to that ok, if we are all sure of our salvation then there is no need to get angry because someone else says something we don't agree with. I trust God will dicipline me if I'm off on a bunny trail, He seems to be right there these days when I try to run off in my own head.

Love in Yeshua's name

Shilou

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Shilou,

So here we are completely dependent on people who a long time ago made countless decisions for us only to further their own agenda's.

In essence, you do not believe that the ENTIRE Bible is God's "inspired" Word to man which negates the following verse:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Paul was called to be a prophet to the Gentiles by Jesus Himself on the road to Damascus and was taught by personal revelation by Jesus Christ Himself. So Paul's letters are equal with any of those who personally walked with Jesus and so it is attested. Paul even had the audacity to upbraid Peter regarding the "circumcision" and Peter repented.

It was to the disciples that Jesus gave the "great commission" that was to go out to the entire world and to teach and make disciples of the entire world teaching them what Jesus had personally told them.

So you are way off base here. You need to get back to the basics.

As for Isaiah 9:5, here is the rendering from "The Complete Jewish Bible":

For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor Avi-'Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace], in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of Adonai-Tzva'ot will accomplish this.

For your own sake, I pray that you "diligently seek God" and seek His Kingdom and His righteousness first before you do anything else.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie