WayneB Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 18, 2004 This paradoxical question is very important, not because it disproves God, but because it forces theists into putting metaphysical limits on God's power. Nick, I know I am a bit soft in the head but my mind does not accept the paradox. I do not have to place metaphysical limits on God's power just because of this allegedly unanswerable question. I cannot define the limits of infinite or solve for Pi either....nor can anyone as far as I know. In the context of the finite, there are some questions that just don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 18, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 18, 2004 So we must search for a less contradictory definition of "all powerful". My personal favourite is: all powerful: The ability to do anything imaginable that is logically possible.. One more thing Nick. Ready for a circular counter-arguement? Whose logic? Whose imagination? Logic and imagination in the finite or in the realm of the immeasurable? I feel like the Star Trek theme song may play at any moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adstar Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 As the others said: God being infinite and all powerful, cannot, while staying true to His nature as God, do anything against His nature- such as create something that is not within His power to lift. In the same way, we cannot be perfect, because it is not within our nature to do so, but to be sinful, and needing of God's mercy and grace. The rock argument is another proof of what the Bible says about God's thoughts being higher than our thoughts, and His ways above our ways. We can never fully understand Him, because He is above our understanding. All we can do, is accept His existence, because He IS, and ask Him to give us understanding for the things we need to know about Him, when we need them. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thought provoker: The very word a-theism means without God. But is there really anyone who believes in NO God? Even those who claim that God does not exist worship something, thus making their label invalid. Psalms 139:? Where can I go from Your Spirit, or where can I flee from Your presence? Amen to that DaniJ87 Welcome to our boards friend :t3: All Praise The Ancient of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 the argument is as follows: god can either create a stone he cant lift, or he cant create the stone he cant lift. this confused me to begin with and i said it was flawed becuase the word "cant" is closing the outcome of the question. can anyone help solve this question to help me prove to this argument is flawed? help much appricated i pray for this guy daily Ask this person who hung the stars..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seraph Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 21 Topic Count: 129 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,801 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 483 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 How could (and to what purpose would) the infinite, Creator God, who is beyond time-space, create some thing that is more infinite??? I don't think there is any such thing as more infinite... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadB Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 42 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 You are all arguing a question that WE can't possibly know. My question is why does it matter? We are humans with human minds. We can try and try to explain it with our language and fancy terms to make us sound smart but let me tell you that WE WON'T BE ABLE TO FIND THE ANSWER WITH OUR CLOUDED HUMAN MINDS!!!! Thats one of the problems with people today. We think we are so smart that we can attempt to completely understand the workings our of Lord and Creator. WE CAN'T!!!!!! It sure is interesting to read the points but beware of thinking that we can completely understand the magnificance of God. Peace and love ya'll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M45510G1C Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 627 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) the argument is as follows: god can either create a stone he cant lift, or he cant create the stone he cant lift. this confused me to begin with and i said it was flawed becuase the word "cant" is closing the outcome of the question. can anyone help solve this question to help me prove to this argument is flawed? help much appricated i pray for this guy daily Perhaps this answer has already been given, but here I go anyway (no time to read the thread). Can God create a stone that He cannot lift? Can God create a square circle? A married bachelor? The answer to these questions is, simply put, no. God, though Omnipotent, is still bound to the rules of logic, He cannot contradict Himself, nor can He cause any logical contradiction. A stone is a finite object. If it somehow became infinite, it would cease to be a stone, as one of the properties of a stone is finititude. God is infinite, if He ceased being infinite He would cease to be God, as one of the properties of Godhood is infinitude. For God to be unable to not lift something, that something would need to be (at the very least) infinite. So, when asking if God can create a stone he cannot lift, in essence, you are asking if He can create an infinite finite object. This is obviously nonsensical. Again, it is my belief that God, though omnipotent, must still abide by the rules of logic. Edited October 19, 2004 by M45510G1C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChadB Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 42 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/07/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 God has to abide by rules? Oh my. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Again, it is my belief that God, though omnipotent, must still abide by the rules of logic. Whose logic? Logic in the finite or in the realm of the immeasurable? I believe our attempt to define and place limits for God is a solid demonstration of just how finite we really are. Pi has no known end...it starts with 3.14 and has 6.4 billion known digits but still has no end? Do we stop believing in Pi as a legitimate mathematical expression just because we can't pin it down? Otherwise... God is infinite, if He ceased being infinite He would cease to be God, as one of the properties of Godhood is infinitude. That is why God when speaking of His fullness referred to Himself as I AM. Be Blessed, Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M45510G1C Posted October 19, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 627 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/15/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) Whose logic? Logic in the finite or in the realm of the immeasurable? Perhaps I should clarify. God cannot cause logical contradiction to happen within reality as we know it, the physical universe. Whether or not He is able to do so in the metaphysical, and by what criteria we are able to determine logic in a metaphysical sense, I do not know. God can do anything that is possible (moving a mountain, parting a sea, creating the universe) but He cannot do the impossible (square circles, colorless orange basketballs, married bachelors, etc). Logic is neither something more divine than God, nor something expressly created by God, but rather a function of God Edited October 19, 2004 by M45510G1C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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