Retrobyter Posted July 29, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted July 29, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 29, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Perhaps planet heaven today will be the new earth of tomorrow. If so, no problem! Perhaps also it is difficult to tell the difference between a vision and reality. Some that have gone say they see earth getting smaller and smaller, then see themselves leaving the entire solar system for outer space. When they arrive they see a planet quite like the earth they left. Others just seem to be transported straight to the gates of the city and the see nothing else but inside the city. From scripture we know that heaven is UP, while hell is down. How far up and how far down we are not told. From Paul we can guess that it is up above heaven 1, our atmosphere, and heaven 2, above our atmosphere, to the 3rd heaven. We just don't know how far that is. Since we are not told, it really does not make much difference WHERE it is, I just know one day I will BE THERE, for that is my real home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted July 30, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Perhaps planet heaven today will be the new earth of tomorrow. If so, no problem! Perhaps also it is difficult to tell the difference between a vision and reality. Some that have gone say they see earth getting smaller and smaller, then see themselves leaving the entire solar system for outer space. When they arrive they see a planet quite like the earth they left. Others just seem to be transported straight to the gates of the city and the see nothing else but inside the city. From scripture we know that heaven is UP, while hell is down. How far up and how far down we are not told. From Paul we can guess that it is up above heaven 1, our atmosphere, and heaven 2, above our atmosphere, to the 3rd heaven. We just don't know how far that is. Since we are not told, it really does not make much difference WHERE it is, I just know one day I will BE THERE, for that is my real home. No, sir, that is a MYTH! First of all, the "fact" that "heaven is UP, while hell is down" is from the DARK AGES! We live on a GLOBE! We can only go down a little less than 4000 miles, and then we're going UP again! Secondly, you are following the OLD, OLD, OLD view that the "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" myth that Rev. C.I. Scofield perpetrated in his Scofield Reference Bible! The 1, 2, and 3 of the heavens is NOT spatial, but CHRONOLOGICAL! Look at 2 Peter 3:3-13. THERE'S your "three heavens": 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" Hello Retrobyter, If Paradise is the New Jerusalem what is you impression of Luke 23:43 Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. When was the thief in the New Jerusalem ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted July 30, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Perhaps planet heaven today will be the new earth of tomorrow. If so, no problem! Perhaps also it is difficult to tell the difference between a vision and reality. Some that have gone say they see earth getting smaller and smaller, then see themselves leaving the entire solar system for outer space. When they arrive they see a planet quite like the earth they left. Others just seem to be transported straight to the gates of the city and the see nothing else but inside the city. From scripture we know that heaven is UP, while hell is down. How far up and how far down we are not told. From Paul we can guess that it is up above heaven 1, our atmosphere, and heaven 2, above our atmosphere, to the 3rd heaven. We just don't know how far that is. Since we are not told, it really does not make much difference WHERE it is, I just know one day I will BE THERE, for that is my real home. No, sir, that is a MYTH! First of all, the "fact" that "heaven is UP, while hell is down" is from the DARK AGES! We live on a GLOBE! We can only go down a little less than 4000 miles, and then we're going UP again! Secondly, you are following the OLD, OLD, OLD view that the "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" myth that Rev. C.I. Scofield perpetrated in his Scofield Reference Bible! The 1, 2, and 3 of the heavens is NOT spatial, but CHRONOLOGICAL! Look at 2 Peter 3:3-13. THERE'S your "three heavens": 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" So only myth? I think you don't read much! Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. WHERE are the foundations of the mountains? Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Where is DEEP? consider a Well: it is deep. Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Heaven is UP! Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Exodus 9:10 And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Deuteronomy 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Chronicles 30:27 Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. Where is hell? It is DOWN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted July 30, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Perhaps planet heaven today will be the new earth of tomorrow. If so, no problem! Perhaps also it is difficult to tell the difference between a vision and reality. Some that have gone say they see earth getting smaller and smaller, then see themselves leaving the entire solar system for outer space. When they arrive they see a planet quite like the earth they left. Others just seem to be transported straight to the gates of the city and the see nothing else but inside the city. From scripture we know that heaven is UP, while hell is down. How far up and how far down we are not told. From Paul we can guess that it is up above heaven 1, our atmosphere, and heaven 2, above our atmosphere, to the 3rd heaven. We just don't know how far that is. Since we are not told, it really does not make much difference WHERE it is, I just know one day I will BE THERE, for that is my real home. No, sir, that is a MYTH! First of all, the "fact" that "heaven is UP, while hell is down" is from the DARK AGES! We live on a GLOBE! We can only go down a little less than 4000 miles, and then we're going UP again! Secondly, you are following the OLD, OLD, OLD view that the "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" myth that Rev. C.I. Scofield perpetrated in his Scofield Reference Bible! The 1, 2, and 3 of the heavens is NOT spatial, but CHRONOLOGICAL! Look at 2 Peter 3:3-13. THERE'S your "three heavens": 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" So only myth? I think you don't read much! Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. WHERE are the foundations of the mountains? Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Where is DEEP? consider a Well: it is deep. Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Heaven is UP! Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Exodus 9:10 And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Deuteronomy 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Chronicles 30:27 Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. Where is hell? It is DOWN. I would recommend that you do a word study on "heaven" and a separate word study on "hell." First, DON'T focus on the English words. The Bible wasn't written in English; it was written in Hebrew or Aramaic and then the NT was translated to the Greek. We can study the OT in Hebrew, and we can study the NT in Greek (because we no longer have any of the original manuscripts, and because our oldest manuscripts are written in the Greek into which it was translated and copied). You will find that there are five Greek words that were translated in the NT as "heaven," "heavens," "air," "sky," or "heavenly": ouranos, ouranios, ouranothen, mesouraneema, and epouranios. I would recommend at the least that you use the Strong's Concordance with its Hebrew/Greek Dictionaries keyed to the numbering system that Strong's uses. I would also recommend that you use an Englishman's Concordance to discover all the locations in Scripture where these words were used, regardless of their translation. One isn't required to use the Englishman's Concordance; one can get all that information through the Exhaustive Strong's Concordance, but the Englishman's Concordance makes it a little easier and therefore a little quicker. You will also find that there are three Greek words that were translated in the NT as "hell": hadees (spelled alpha-delta-eta-stigma, with an aspirated mark over the alpha, transliterated with an "h," not properly pronounced "HAY-deez," like so many say, but pronounced "hah-DACE"), ge-enna (frequently written as "gehenna" although in reality it is spelled with two epsilons back to back) and tartaro-oo (spelled tau-alpha-rho-tau-alpha-rho-omicron-omega and is actually the verb form for "tartaros" that is found in Greek mythology but is not found in its noun form within the Bible). In the Hebrew OT, you will find it a little simpler: The word translated "heaven" or "heavens" or "air" or "sky" is the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Hebrew word translated as "hell" or "grave" is "sh'owl," usually written as "sheol." However, there is also a Hebrew phrase that is essential to gain understanding about the "heavens": "shaameey hashaamayim," the "heaven of heavens." One would probably be wise to add a study about the Greek word "paradeisos" TRANSLITERATED as "paradise," and its Hebrew counterpart, "pardeec," pronounced "par-DACE," both meaning "a PARK" or an "ORCHARD!" I'll say no more, unless you request it. Do the word studies so you can discover the truth for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted July 30, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted July 30, 2013 Shalom, ninhao. 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" Hello Retrobyter, If Paradise is the New Jerusalem what is you impression of Luke 23:43? Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. When was the thief in the New Jerusalem ? There are a couple of possibilities; choose the one you think is more likely, but we're not actually told. First, it is entirely possible that that VERY DAY the thief went to the New Jerusalem, just as Yeshua` (Jesus) said, because it is the New Jerusalem that has the description of "gates of pearl" and "golden streets" and the "river of the water of life," not some "Heaven." The second possibility is only if one believes in "soul sleep." It's possible that this prediction by Yeshua` is given to the thief, referring to the Resurrection. The next thing the thief will experience is waking up within New Jerusalem. I really don't think this is true, though. There's too many other questions that this possibility raises. It's just easier to accept Yeshua`s words. But, to prove to you that the New Jerusalem is "paradise," consider this simple logical progression: First, Yeshua` told Yochanan (John) to write the following to the church at Ephesus: Revelation 2:7 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. KJV So, the tree of life is in the middle of this "Paradise." But where is the "tree of life?" Well, Yochanan later tells us this: Revelation 21:9-21 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. KJV Revelation 22:2 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. KJV So, the tree of life is in the middle of the street of the New Jerusalem, as a huge park in its median. Therefore, the New Jerusalem either contains Paradise, OR it IS Paradise! Knowing that the Hebrew word "Pardeec" means a "park" or an "orchard," from which the Greek word "Paradise" comes, we can say that the New Jerusalem IS this "Paradise," or at the very least, CONTAINS this "Park of trees," specifically, the "Park of the Tree of Life!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 There are a couple of possibilities; choose the one you think is more likely, but we're not actually told. First, it is entirely possible that that VERY DAY the thief went to the New Jerusalem, just as Yeshua` (Jesus) said, because it is the New Jerusalem that has the description of "gates of pearl" and "golden streets" and the "river of the water of life," not some "Heaven." The second possibility is only if one believes in "soul sleep." It's possible that this prediction by Yeshua` is given to the thief, referring to the Resurrection. The next thing the thief will experience is waking up within New Jerusalem. I really don't think this is true, though. There's too many other questions that this possibility raises. It's just easier to accept Yeshua`s words. But, to prove to you that the New Jerusalem is "paradise," consider this simple logical progression: First, Yeshua` told Yochanan (John) to write the following to the church at Ephesus: Revelation 2:7 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. KJV So, the tree of life is in the middle of this "Paradise." But where is the "tree of life?" Well, Yochanan later tells us this: Revelation 21:9-21 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. KJV Revelation 22:2 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. KJV So, the tree of life is in the middle of the street of the New Jerusalem, as a huge park in its median. Therefore, the New Jerusalem either contains Paradise, OR it IS Paradise! Knowing that the Hebrew word "Pardeec" means a "park" or an "orchard," from which the Greek word "Paradise" comes, we can say that the New Jerusalem IS this "Paradise," or at the very least, CONTAINS this "Park of trees," specifically, the "Park of the Tree of Life!" Thank-you Retrobyter this is interesting I've never heard it before. I will look at it more closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamlamad Posted August 10, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 23 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 8,272 Content Per Day: 2.08 Reputation: 689 Days Won: 4 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 10, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Perhaps planet heaven today will be the new earth of tomorrow. If so, no problem! Perhaps also it is difficult to tell the difference between a vision and reality. Some that have gone say they see earth getting smaller and smaller, then see themselves leaving the entire solar system for outer space. When they arrive they see a planet quite like the earth they left. Others just seem to be transported straight to the gates of the city and the see nothing else but inside the city. From scripture we know that heaven is UP, while hell is down. How far up and how far down we are not told. From Paul we can guess that it is up above heaven 1, our atmosphere, and heaven 2, above our atmosphere, to the 3rd heaven. We just don't know how far that is. Since we are not told, it really does not make much difference WHERE it is, I just know one day I will BE THERE, for that is my real home. No, sir, that is a MYTH! First of all, the "fact" that "heaven is UP, while hell is down" is from the DARK AGES! We live on a GLOBE! We can only go down a little less than 4000 miles, and then we're going UP again! Secondly, you are following the OLD, OLD, OLD view that the "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" myth that Rev. C.I. Scofield perpetrated in his Scofield Reference Bible! The 1, 2, and 3 of the heavens is NOT spatial, but CHRONOLOGICAL! Look at 2 Peter 3:3-13. THERE'S your "three heavens": 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" So only myth? I think you don't read much! Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. WHERE are the foundations of the mountains? Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Where is DEEP? consider a Well: it is deep. Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Heaven is UP! Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Exodus 9:10 And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Deuteronomy 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Chronicles 30:27 Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. Where is hell? It is DOWN. I would recommend that you do a word study on "heaven" and a separate word study on "hell." First, DON'T focus on the English words. The Bible wasn't written in English; it was written in Hebrew or Aramaic and then the NT was translated to the Greek. We can study the OT in Hebrew, and we can study the NT in Greek (because we no longer have any of the original manuscripts, and because our oldest manuscripts are written in the Greek into which it was translated and copied). You will find that there are five Greek words that were translated in the NT as "heaven," "heavens," "air," "sky," or "heavenly": ouranos, ouranios, ouranothen, mesouraneema, and epouranios. I would recommend at the least that you use the Strong's Concordance with its Hebrew/Greek Dictionaries keyed to the numbering system that Strong's uses. I would also recommend that you use an Englishman's Concordance to discover all the locations in Scripture where these words were used, regardless of their translation. One isn't required to use the Englishman's Concordance; one can get all that information through the Exhaustive Strong's Concordance, but the Englishman's Concordance makes it a little easier and therefore a little quicker. You will also find that there are three Greek words that were translated in the NT as "hell": hadees (spelled alpha-delta-eta-stigma, with an aspirated mark over the alpha, transliterated with an "h," not properly pronounced "HAY-deez," like so many say, but pronounced "hah-DACE"), ge-enna (frequently written as "gehenna" although in reality it is spelled with two epsilons back to back) and tartaro-oo (spelled tau-alpha-rho-tau-alpha-rho-omicron-omega and is actually the verb form for "tartaros" that is found in Greek mythology but is not found in its noun form within the Bible). In the Hebrew OT, you will find it a little simpler: The word translated "heaven" or "heavens" or "air" or "sky" is the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Hebrew word translated as "hell" or "grave" is "sh'owl," usually written as "sheol." However, there is also a Hebrew phrase that is essential to gain understanding about the "heavens": "shaameey hashaamayim," the "heaven of heavens." One would probably be wise to add a study about the Greek word "paradeisos" TRANSLITERATED as "paradise," and its Hebrew counterpart, "pardeec," pronounced "par-DACE," both meaning "a PARK" or an "ORCHARD!" I'll say no more, unless you request it. Do the word studies so you can discover the truth for yourself. It is great to study, and indeed I have studied every verse where heaven is used in the King James. However, I will make an observation: about 99% of the time, we can come to the right conclusion just by reading the context of these words! If you wish to think that God our Father does not HAVE a home, and Jesus went NOWHERE (or perhaps into the air we breath) to build mansions, you are certainly free to believe so! We ALL have that right! But by this time, there are SO MANY testimonies of people who have been there, we can get a pretty good idea from them also. I have read several of these, and find nothing in them that disagrees with the bible; on the contrary, they agree with it. Yes, on many occasions we read about things not mentioned in the bible. This does not bother me! One man saw his pets who had died. They ASKED Him when the wife and kids would be coming! I don't doubt his story. Lamad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrobyter Posted August 14, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 9 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 6,588 Content Per Day: 1.07 Reputation: 2,444 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/28/1957 Share Posted August 14, 2013 Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. Shalom, Lamad. ... I agree with almost all of this. I would only add, the New Jerusalem is on a PLANET we call "heaven." It is a very real place. Many people have been blessed to visit it. Some go to the New Jerusalem, but some have been blessed to visit places far away from the Holy City. It does seem that one day that Holy City will be transplanted to a New earth. Lamad Sorry, but that is absolutely NOT information conveyed from Scripture, and it introduces a bit of a sticky situation: IF the Holy City will be transplanted from this "PLANET we call 'heaven,'" then what does God DO with the planet after the transplant? Is it just discarded? Is it somehow merged with old Earth to make a New Earth? Such a concept actually begs more questions than it answers. What DOES make sense to me is that God would give His prophets VISIONS of the New Earth ahead of time, just as He has for many of His prophets in the past. Many fail to make the connection, but God showing Yochanan (John) the visions of the future that He did makes Yochanan a PROPHET! Paul, too, if he is the one of whom he wrote in 2 Corinthians 12:1-4, is also a PROPHET! And, as is common with God's prophets, the visions they had were visions of the future. Such visions were promised in Joel 2:26-32: Joel 2:26-32 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. KJV If these people of whom you speak were recipients of this promise, then they may have been seeing the future of THIS planet rather than a distant planet. There's just no biblical confirmation of such a separate, distant planet. Just a thought. Perhaps planet heaven today will be the new earth of tomorrow. If so, no problem! Perhaps also it is difficult to tell the difference between a vision and reality. Some that have gone say they see earth getting smaller and smaller, then see themselves leaving the entire solar system for outer space. When they arrive they see a planet quite like the earth they left. Others just seem to be transported straight to the gates of the city and the see nothing else but inside the city. From scripture we know that heaven is UP, while hell is down. How far up and how far down we are not told. From Paul we can guess that it is up above heaven 1, our atmosphere, and heaven 2, above our atmosphere, to the 3rd heaven. We just don't know how far that is. Since we are not told, it really does not make much difference WHERE it is, I just know one day I will BE THERE, for that is my real home. No, sir, that is a MYTH! First of all, the "fact" that "heaven is UP, while hell is down" is from the DARK AGES! We live on a GLOBE! We can only go down a little less than 4000 miles, and then we're going UP again! Secondly, you are following the OLD, OLD, OLD view that the "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd heaven = of stars, 3rd heaven = God's abode" myth that Rev. C.I. Scofield perpetrated in his Scofield Reference Bible! The 1, 2, and 3 of the heavens is NOT spatial, but CHRONOLOGICAL! Look at 2 Peter 3:3-13. THERE'S your "three heavens": 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (1) the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for (3) new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV THAT'S what Paul meant by the "third heaven" (2 Cor. 12:1-4)! And, "Paradise" = "the New Jerusalem!" So only myth? I think you don't read much! Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. WHERE are the foundations of the mountains? Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know? Where is DEEP? consider a Well: it is deep. Psalm 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them. Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death. Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath. Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen. Heaven is UP! Genesis 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Exodus 9:10 And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast. Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. Deuteronomy 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Deuteronomy 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. 2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Chronicles 30:27 Then the priests the Levites arose and blessed the people: and their voice was heard, and their prayer came up to his holy dwelling place, even unto heaven. Where is hell? It is DOWN. I would recommend that you do a word study on "heaven" and a separate word study on "hell." First, DON'T focus on the English words. The Bible wasn't written in English; it was written in Hebrew or Aramaic and then the NT was translated to the Greek. We can study the OT in Hebrew, and we can study the NT in Greek (because we no longer have any of the original manuscripts, and because our oldest manuscripts are written in the Greek into which it was translated and copied). You will find that there are five Greek words that were translated in the NT as "heaven," "heavens," "air," "sky," or "heavenly": ouranos, ouranios, ouranothen, mesouraneema, and epouranios. I would recommend at the least that you use the Strong's Concordance with its Hebrew/Greek Dictionaries keyed to the numbering system that Strong's uses. I would also recommend that you use an Englishman's Concordance to discover all the locations in Scripture where these words were used, regardless of their translation. One isn't required to use the Englishman's Concordance; one can get all that information through the Exhaustive Strong's Concordance, but the Englishman's Concordance makes it a little easier and therefore a little quicker. You will also find that there are three Greek words that were translated in the NT as "hell": hadees (spelled alpha-delta-eta-stigma, with an aspirated mark over the alpha, transliterated with an "h," not properly pronounced "HAY-deez," like so many say, but pronounced "hah-DACE"), ge-enna (frequently written as "gehenna" although in reality it is spelled with two epsilons back to back) and tartaro-oo (spelled tau-alpha-rho-tau-alpha-rho-omicron-omega and is actually the verb form for "tartaros" that is found in Greek mythology but is not found in its noun form within the Bible). In the Hebrew OT, you will find it a little simpler: The word translated "heaven" or "heavens" or "air" or "sky" is the Hebrew word "shaamayim" and the Hebrew word translated as "hell" or "grave" is "sh'owl," usually written as "sheol." However, there is also a Hebrew phrase that is essential to gain understanding about the "heavens": "shaameey hashaamayim," the "heaven of heavens." One would probably be wise to add a study about the Greek word "paradeisos" TRANSLITERATED as "paradise," and its Hebrew counterpart, "pardeec," pronounced "par-DACE," both meaning "a PARK" or an "ORCHARD!" I'll say no more, unless you request it. Do the word studies so you can discover the truth for yourself. It is great to study, and indeed I have studied every verse where heaven is used in the King James. However, I will make an observation: about 99% of the time, we can come to the right conclusion just by reading the context of these words! If you wish to think that God our Father does not HAVE a home, and Jesus went NOWHERE (or perhaps into the air we breath) to build mansions, you are certainly free to believe so! We ALL have that right! But by this time, there are SO MANY testimonies of people who have been there, we can get a pretty good idea from them also. I have read several of these, and find nothing in them that disagrees with the bible; on the contrary, they agree with it. Yes, on many occasions we read about things not mentioned in the bible. This does not bother me! One man saw his pets who had died. They ASKED Him when the wife and kids would be coming! I don't doubt his story. Lamad Why do you continue to twist my words? Do you ENJOY putting someone else down, or what? I didn't say that God our Father does not have a home, nor did I say that Yeshua` went nowhere! What I said was that the New Jerusalem IS our Father's house, and that THAT is where Yeshua` told His disciples He was going! Why is that so hard for you to grasp? Secondly, read whatever testimonies you would like, BUT TAKE THEM WITH A GRAIN OF SALT! They are the words of human beings, and no matter how well-intentioned, human beings MAKE MISTAKES! It's much better to take the context of passages of Scripture than to pit people's testimonies against the Scriptures! In the final analysis, "let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!" Do you think those words were said idly? "Oh, it's just a figure of speech." NO! We are to take God's Word over ANY testimony we read or hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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