Adam And Eve - Just An Allegory?

[Botz]

I've come to hate getting involved with Creation-Evolution debates.

 

Not my cuppa tea either...

 

One reason is because I have learned that Creationists more often than not misrepresent what the scientific theories are actually claiming. This creates nothing but mockery from those that truly are opposed to Jesus, the Bible, and Christians.

 

 

I have found that too at times.

 

Another reason is because I actually read in Genesis things that don't make sense with the standard 7-day Creation model, and when I bring those points up, supporters respond with a bunch of theological and theoretical gymnastics that come across more as if someone is trying to defend their theology rather than trying to support the Bible.

 

Totally agree.    I don't understand how so many people can claim such a complete knowledge and understanding over such a minute amount of information covering

such a vast and incomprehensible subject....I always remind myself of G-ds words to Job...'Were you there?'

 

 

While I believe the standard evolution model does require jumping gaps and making assumptions that proponents for some odd reason are blind to, I also believe that the standard Creation model is an attempt to fit a theological explanation into a scientific one, which I believe is akin to using pearls to create ball bearings.

 

I think there are blind-spots, presumptions, and unworked theories throughout both approaches...mis-use of Sciences , both Evolutionist and Creationist.

[Guest]

What I want from you is the argument that ... you cannot subscribe to both evolutionary theory (as I have defined as species from common descent) and believe that God created everything.  why do you think this so strongly?

 

 

~

 

As I Read It The Core Faith Of That Pagan Priesthood

 

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(a-c)

 

Worshiping In The Temple Of The Blind god

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

 

Of Whim And Chance

 

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isaiah 45:9

 

Versus The Core Faith Of The Created Man

 

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:3-6

 

Worshiping At The Feet

 

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: Romans 5:1

 

Of His Creator

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

God

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

As I See It

 

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Galatians 5:5

 

~

 

And The End Of The Discussion

 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:7-11

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Child Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Be Very Blessed

 

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm going to start this with the caveat that I'm personally a YEC. Having said that, I will say that these criteria are subjective, at best. I don't see any reason a believer couldn't see a metaphorical meaning with regard to creation and remain a believer (even if I think they're wrong).

 

If I were claiming that a person who took on a metaphorical meaning could not be a Christian, then your statement would have merit in response to me, but since I have not made that argument and have repeatedly denied any view that calls into question the salvation of either BFA or baryconect, I would appreciate it if you would stop assigning values to me that I have not expressed anywhere in this thread.  Do you think you can manage that?   Do you think you can find it in yourself to correctly frame my arguments and respond to what I am saying instead of trying misrepresenting my position just so you can have something to knock down??

 

 

 

You also have to realize that in a lot of cases people are going to be coming straight out of atheistic backgrounds and are attempting to come to terms with all sorts of moral dilemmas and likely undergoing a lot of upheaval in their personal lives at the same time.

 

Yes, but that is not the case here and that possibility has been denied by bary who sees absolutely nothing in arguments that reflect any struggle with atheism, at least that is what he has claimed in this thread.  BFA has also not said anything that would indicate such a struggle is taking place in him either.   Again stick with what is being said and stop trying to make excuses for other people.

 

 

It's not necessary to assume that someone in this particular situation who may eventually embrace the young earth position is going to immediately embrace the young earth position, or even embrace it in 5 years or 10 years. I find it generally best to give people the benefit of the doubt. If I have a disagreement with a brother or sister in Christ over evolution then so be it, as long as he or she knows that Jesus bore his or her sins of the cross and was resurrected and as long as they have genuinely put their faith in Him I'm going to trust God to deal with it, even if that involves using me as a vessel from time to time.

This is not really a debate about Creation or Evolution per se, as much as it is about the attempt to force the Bible to accomodate the ToE by introducing Genesis as  a parable, as a story that is not historical, never happened.  It is about the theological supposition that you can reject what the Bible says about the origin of sin and still hold to a biblical view of sin.  It is about the theological supposition that Genesis bears no strong relveance for the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and that one's belief in a an allegorical, non historical Genesis is completely disconnected with believing in Jesus.

 

The problem here is doctrinally and theoligcally far more problematic than you and others appear to be generally aware.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

What I want from you is the argument that the evolutionists in question gave that convinced you that you cannot subscribe to both evolutionary theory (as I have defined as species from common descent) and believe that God  created everything. You have repeatedly stated 'they' told you this. I have repeatedly asked for what it is that they argued that you have found so compelling. So... why do you think this so strongly?

 

Because the ToE, according to the scientists I spoke to, holds that the process of evolution is unguided, impersonal, unplanned and wholly naturalistic.   It has no no intelligent causality and is not guided by any intelligent being of any kind.  

 

Those are the core tenets of the ToE that have been made abundantly clear.  That is the mainstream view of evolution.  There is NO way you can reconcile an impersonal, naturalistic and unguided process with a personal and supernatural act of Creation caused by an intelligent, personal Creator who guides and sustains all of creation.  Those are diametrically opposed views.  It would be like a man who has access to $1 million dollars in his bank claiming to also be dirt poor.

 

That is why evolution is so whole-heartedly embraced by atheists.  They don't have to embrace the creationist view because they have a theory that precludes God altogether.

[enoob57]

s

 The question in my mind then is, when I read the Bible, should I be looking *primarily* for scientifically accurate accounts, or even overly focused on historical happenings (though obviously I think the large majority of it is historically accurate), if the Bible uses these accounts primarily to communicate to us the greater reality of God's existence, sovereignty, purpose of our existence and so on. I'm not against discussing these things, but they could only have a secondary type of importance.

 

Bary I wanted to address this Theological Window of God's Purpose you speak of:

Like the reason I gave of God's giving Moses an account of how God began things Ex 33:11(the Friend speaking to friend context) so also

now this suggestion within you of primary and secondary importance must be brought into this context! We know that before God

created 'WAS' God Jn 4:24, Jn 1 ... we know by all The Writ of God that the created element of beginning had infinite possibilities as scientific laws

are maintained and controlled by God but God is not bound in submission to those laws Rm 1:20 leaving creative laws secondary to the infinite

reality of God... as God has spoken these last days Through His Son and primary importance of God 'IS' fully revealed The New Heaven and New

Earth of eternity cannot be understood now by what is made-

1 Cor 2:9

9 But as it is written:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
NKJV

so as God has settled the division aspect of primary and secondary in definition by that which He keeps of present creation (His Word, souls of men)

into eternal state and that which He does not keep but ultimately destroys as though it never was

2 Peter 3:7-13
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until

the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with

the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack

concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any

should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in

the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent

heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.  11 Therefore, since all these things

will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for

and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire,

and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new

heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
NKJV

Because God has began us in these elements by which He knew He was not keeping and we walk in The Spirit of faith in believing

we are transformed into a people who live in a place not yet existing successfully transforming us into The Children of Abraham by

his beginnings

Heb 11:8-10

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an

inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of

promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same

promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
NKJV

If we put anything of temporary before that which is eternal we have effectively made an idol within our heart! 

Thus the understanding of this

Heb 10:34-39
34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods,

knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.  35 Therefore

do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so

that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 "For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith; But if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him."

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
NKJV

Love, Steven 

[Gandalf]

I've come to hate getting involved with Creation-Evolution debates.

 

One reason is because I have learned that Creationists more often than not misrepresent what the scientific theories are actually claiming. This creates nothing but mockery from those that truly are opposed to Jesus, the Bible, and Christians.

 

Another reason is because I actually read in Genesis things that don't make sense with the standard 7-day Creation model, and when I bring those points up, supporters respond with a bunch of theological and theoretical gymnastics that come across more as if someone is trying to defend their theology rather than trying to support the Bible.

 

While I believe the standard evolution model does require jumping gaps and making assumptions that proponents for some odd reason are blind to, I also believe that the standard Creation model is an attempt to fit a theological explanation into a scientific one, which I believe is akin to using pearls to create ball bearings.

Replying to the bolded part. 

 

In this thread, it is the "evolutionists" who are misrepresenting what the ToE is saying, not the creationists.  I am running with what I have learned about the core tenets of the theory from those who are in the best position to explain it.  It is those promoting evolution in this thread who are trying to skew Evolution in order to make it fit into the Bible (and they are also misrepresenting the Bible, as well).

 

 

I'm going to start this with the caveat that I'm personally a YEC. Having said that, I will say that these criteria are subjective, at best. I don't see any reason a believer couldn't see a metaphorical meaning with regard to creation and remain a believer (even if I think they're wrong). You also have to realize that in a lot of cases people are going to be coming straight out of atheistic backgrounds and are attempting to come to terms with all sorts of moral dilemmas and likely undergoing a lot of upheaval in their personal lives at the same time. It's not necessary to assume that someone in this particular situation who may eventually embrace the young earth position is going to immediately embrace the young earth position, or even embrace it in 5 years or 10 years. I find it generally best to give people the benefit of the doubt. If I have a disagreement with a brother or sister in Christ over evolution then so be it, as long as he or she knows that Jesus bore his or her sins of the cross and was resurrected and as long as they have genuinely put their faith in Him I'm going to trust God to deal with it, even if that involves using me as a vessel from time to time.

Yes, I can largely go along with that, though I do not subscribe to YEC. Glad we can agree.

[nebula]

 

Shiloh

 

What I want from you is the argument that the evolutionists in question gave that convinced you that you cannot subscribe to both evolutionary theory (as I have defined as species from common descent) and believe that God  created everything. You have repeatedly stated 'they' told you this. I have repeatedly asked for what it is that they argued that you have found so compelling. So... why do you think this so strongly?

 

 

Gen. 1:21

So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

 

 

What does "according to their kinds" mean to you?

 

 

According to the standard evolutionary model, all life has "a common ancestor."

 

Yet this theory has yet to find the evidence for the arising of this thing we call life - a functioning, self-sustaining cell. (A new "kind" arising from previously existing different "kind".)

 

This theory also fails to to explain how the different "kingdoms" as we classify them arose. (What is the ancient non-animal ancestor from which the first "animal" came? At what stage of development did it go from bacteria/plant/whatever to animal? There is not hard core evidence for this; rather, there are fill-in-the-blank arguments to explain what "must" have happened.)

 

From what ancient "ancestor" did the canines arise? What evidence is there that some non-canine animal population mutated adaptive changes to their anatomy and physiology to enable then to be a completely new kind of creature?

[Mr. Nice Christian]

Maybe instead of Adam and Eve only being an allegory if evolution is true, perhaps there is some truth in the actual existence of Adam and Eve.  I have heard from some thestic evolutionists that some believe that though Adam and Eve were not the first humans to ever exist in the physical sense, they were in the soul sense.  In other words there is a belief that adam and eve were the first early humans that had a relationship with God, and were given a soul.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Mr. Nice Christian

[Guest shiloh357]

Maybe instead of Adam and Eve only being an allegory if evolution is true, perhaps there is some truth in the actual existence of Adam and Eve.  I have heard from some thestic evolutionists that some believe that though Adam and Eve were not the first humans to ever exist in the physical sense, they were in the soul sense.  In other words there is a belief that adam and eve were the first early humans that had a relationship with God, and were given a soul.

Really??   You've got to be kidding...  Do you support that view?

 

That view requires one to leave the text of Scripture.  The Bible in numerous geneaologies teaches that Adam and Eve were the first human beings in existence and that they were direct creations by God having neither mother nor father.

 

In addition, we would have two sets of human beings;  those with souls and those without.  We would have a fallen race and a race that didn't fall.  We would have those descended from Adam and those who are not descended from Adam.  Which one are you??   That's an important question because according to the Bible, Jesus died for the descendents of Adam.  Only the descendents of Adam qualify for redemption according to the NT. 

 

The very name of "Eve" in Hebrew means "Mother of all living."   Adam is called the first man in the Bible.  He is never called "the first man with a soul" or other such thing.   Sorry, but the TE's are out in left field on this one.  Their suggestion is yet another demonstration about how far people will go to disregard Scripture in order to fit square pegs in rouind holes in their attempt to make the Bible accomodate Evolution.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

They impose that condition artificially.

 

That is only wishful thinking on your part.  They clearly communicated that evolution is an impersonal process from start to finish and there is NO intellgent causality.  There is nothing artificial about that.    I think it is interesting that while you claim to be concerned with scienftic accuracy that you are willing to toss out scientific accuracy when it doesn't suit you. It reveals that your concern about scientific accuracy isn't as important to you as you claim.

 

 

There is no reason you can't think that God guided the process in various ways, by setting up the initial conditions of the universe as they are, by setting up the initial conditions of the earth as they are, by changing the environment, by directly changing genes. There are innumerable possibilities. That the evolutionists you talked to denied that and don't like that possibility is because they don't believe in God. I'm not impressed. It's like consulting a physicist who insists that gravity works without divine intervention. Turns out the guy is just an atheist, and also a physicist. No interesting conclusions about gravity itself are drawn from that.

 

Now you are assigning values to these scientists because you are not willing to be honest about the ToE.   They had no agenda.  I did not debate with them about their answers.  I simply wanted the straight dope.  I was honest with them about who and what I am and they were more than happy to answer any question I had.    The bottom line here, bary is that you and BFA are not in any position to tell me what evolution is or is not.  I asked degreed scientists who were more than competent to answer and frankly your suggestions are simply not holding any water against the word of those who know what they are talking about.

 

The main reason that I can't accept that God guides the process is that the Bible reveals taht mankind is created by God directly from the dust of the earth, apart from the rest of the created order and is specially created to be in God's image and likeness which further separates man from the rest of the created order.  That is where the ToE really collapses because a theistic evolutionist has to disregard that biblical fact.  Theistic Evolution cannot reconcile the creation of man with the ToE because the Bible clearly shows man as having no evolutionary connection with any other creature.

 

Furthermore, a perfect and all knowing God would not create based on imperfection.   God always creates perfectly.  God can do anything imperfectly. He doesn't create imperfect creatures that need to evolve.  He doesn't create imperfect creatures that are unable survive in the places He created them.  The imperfection we see in our world is due to the existence of sin.  Sin corruped all of creation, not just man. 

 

That is why evolution is so popular.  It removes man's accountability for sin before a holy God.  If man is merely a higher animal, then the standard by which we judge morality has no clear authority to determine what is right or wrong.

Those same people might accuse me of touting ID. Fine, perhaps that is what I'm doing but  rather than make this about a semantic issue this is what seems to be true: that the species on the earth today descended from a common ancestor. I believe this is how God created life. Why is *this* view problematic?