ByFaithAlone Posted March 18, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 730 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 49 Days Won: 2 Joined: 07/19/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/13/1993 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 I see this interesting topic heading and wonder who could have posted it, and of course, it is BFA. It's good to see you. Honestly from what I see about this this seems like a promising solution, even if provisional. I'm not just saying that because I'm generally a Plantinga fan either, but it seems to make sense of the most verses. There are many passages in the Bible that strongly suggest that we have some choice when it comes to accepting or rejecting God, and others that explicitly talking about predestination and foreknowledge. Some argue that God simply foreknew all those who would get saved, and that explains the latter, but meanwhile people are making free choices. That's fine as far as it goes, but that sort of position has to entail something like Molinism. I don't see any other way of making it work that we have real choices, and God knows all of our choices at all times, is completely sovereign, and so on. I try to keep things interesting around here It is good to see you too. There are some issues that it still has but I would agree with you that it is very promising. One problem that I personally struggle with is the idea of the actualization of the best possible world that Craig postulates. Craig says that God would actualize a particular world in which the maximal amount of free creatures would choose him (or at least this is my interpretation of what he says, it may be wrong). It seems that I would have a problem with this namely why don't we see a better actual world? Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 18, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2013 Hmmmm ... try this, the next time you have to make a decision, don't. Sit there and wait until you hear God tells you what to do. Wait, by not making a decision, well, that would be making a decision, wouldn't it? Just as stupid as what I just said is, so is the idea that we don't have to ability to make choices, which is free will. I was deciding what to respond to your comment and so I stopped and waited to hear from God and heres what I got: Galatians 6:6 "Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." This is the will of God: John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Man doesnt choose Gods mercy: Romans 9:16 "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy so we cant deny God being absolute because of a moral dilemma with the ramifications of God; nor is it justifiable to claim; God is unfair in His judgement, when He paid the penalty of our disobedience for us. If God had given us free will there wouldnt be salvation because we freely chose to eat the fruit knowing that the penalty was death ergo we chose to die. Salvation would violate free will. John 3:14-20 tells us: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. Who is Jesus speaking about when He says "whoever believes" or "might be saved" or "He who believes" or "he who does not believe" or "because he has not" to mention a few? God has given us the choice to choose to follow Him or reject Him. This is all through scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It cannot be ignored or mistaken, unless, of course, one chooses to ignore the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childeye Posted March 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 517 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2013 Free will as pertains to moral and immoral impetus is not a matter of choice but a matter of knowledge of the Truth of God's Eternal Loving Character. As such, God knows that the ignorant will make ignorant choices and the wise make wise choices. All moral choices are imperative by reason of existing and being forced to make moral decisions. We all reason morally upon our image of god, not because we have a free will but because there is a God. The conscience is empathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childeye Posted March 18, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 517 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2013 If a person does not have free will, and therefore, no choice, then no one can be held responsible for what they do. Jesus said, "Forgive them they know not what they do". Respectively, how do you reconcile this with what you believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 18, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2013 If a person does not have free will, and therefore, no choice, then no one can be held responsible for what they do. Jesus said, "Forgive them they know not what they do". Respectively, how do you reconcile this with what you believe? I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light. If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 18, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 18, 2013 Free will as pertains to moral and immoral impetus is not a matter of choice but a matter of knowledge of the Truth of God's Eternal Loving Character. As such, God knows that the ignorant will make ignorant choices and the wise make wise choices. All moral choices are imperative by reason of existing and being forced to make moral decisions. We all reason morally upon our image of god, not because we have a free will but because there is a God. The conscience is empathy. I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childeye Posted March 19, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 517 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2013 I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light. If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins. On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him. Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childeye Posted March 19, 2013 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 517 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 20 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/16/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2013 I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight? He is the saviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 19, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2013 I think the truth behind your posts are coming to light. If nobody was responsible for what they do, then Jesus would not of needed to die for our sins for we would not be held accountable for things we are not responsible for. Your theory has far too many holes in them to even begin to hold water. You cannot twist scripture to justify sin. There would also be no Great White Throne Judgment if nobody is responsible for their sins. On the contrary, Scripture is explicit in saying Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan so as to destroy the accuser not to advocate for him. Respectfully, accidents can happen and no one ever intended for them to happen and yet people are responsible. Insurance companies even have legal phrases called "acts of God". When several runners run a race, they finish from first to last and there is judgment but it is no one's fault some men are faster than others. Respectfully, it seems you are saying that all sinners including yourself, mean to sin with all our hearts, in opposition to scripture that says it is a condition of being ignorant. Hence Jesus said, the Truth will set you free from the slavery of sin. It appears you like to twist words to bolster yourself above others. I have never once in my life ever states such a lie. Meanwhile, I notice you did not even try to approach the subject about being held responsible for your actions. Do you believe that the Great White Throne Judgment, where Jesus will stand in judgment of sinners, is a not true? If you don't believe there will be one, why is it in scripture? If you do believe Jesus will judge everyone, what will he be judging them on if it is not their life's actions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 19, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2013 I am forced to wonder who you believe Jesus is and why He came? Care to answer this to set things straight? He is the saviour. If you do not believe people are responsible for their sins, what is He saving them from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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