"Split- What do you all Believe- Hell is Like?"

[Guest shiloh357]

I don't have a Bible to hand. The part I find difficult to understand is how exactly Jesus' death provides salvation. I don't really get the metaphysics of it.

Sin is spiritual death/separation from God. God is absolutely holy and there is no sin in God. When Adam was created, he was created sinless and in perfect relationship and fellowship with God. God is the Lifegiver and Adam had eternal life to begin with. But when Adam sinned, he was cut off from the Lifegiver and as a result he died spiritually. As a result, man has inherited from Adam a sinful nature. Adam was the federal head for all mankind in the garden and when Adam fell all mankind fell in him. He essentially poisoned the well for all of us. This separated man spiritually from God. As a result, there is a curse of death that hung over the head of all mankind. The only way for the relationship to be restored is for God’s justice against sin to be satisfied. God is holy and just in an absolute way. And it is the justness and holiness that stand at the center of a perfect system of divine justice that demands sin to be punished. A penalty must be paid and that pentalty is death. The problem is that mankind cannot die for his own sin. If all of humanity were to die for their sin, it would not be enough. The problem comes from us. So the solution cannot come from us. The solution to the problem of sin must come from somewhere outside of us.

What man needs is a sinless person to die for him. Someone whose sacrifice God will accept on our behalf and pay the penalty for us in full. That is where Jesus comes in.

Jesus, who was/is God in the flesh came to earth to undo what Adam did. Jesus was the federal head for all mankind on the cross. The Bible tells us in Rom. 5:12-21 that Jesus was the “last Adam.” It tells us that Jesus’ sinless obedience satisfied the justice of God and paid the pentalty for the curse of death that hung over the head of corporate humanity.

Once God’s justice was satisfied, we were redeemed from the curse of death and the way of salvation was opened up for us. God accepted what Jesus did on our behalf on the basis of Jesus death on the cross, God extends the offer of salvation to anyone willing to accept it. Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection opened up the way to God. Jesus is the way to God. It is through Him that are able to finally have a relationship with our Creator.

It is a free gift that we cannot be good enough to merit and we cannot earn by anything we do. All we need to do is reach out and accept it.

None of us know the nuts and bolts about every pertaining to how salvation was made possible. I simply gave you what the Bible says. It is a mystery, but that should not stop you from receiving salvation. I use a lot of things in my day to day life that I cannot explain. That doesn’t stop me from using ATMs, using a flash drive or turning on a computer. I can’t explain the mechanics of how my car works, but not understanding that doesn’t stop me from driving.

[doubting_tommy]

You didn't tell me your explanation of John3:16.....

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

What does you read here?

1 Peter2:24

He personally carried our sins in his body on the cross so that we can be dead to sin and live for what is right. By his wounds you are healed.

So what does this tell you?

I don't understand how someone else can carry my sins in their body. And I don't understand how that would work in terms of accounting for all sins for the rest of time (since, when Jesus died, I hadn't begun sinning yet).

Edited April 26, 2013 by doubting_tommy

[doubting_tommy]

What do you think it could mean...can you google this too? Look for John 3:16 and the Bible...

Do you have a Bible?

I don't have a Bible to hand. The part I find difficult to understand is how exactly Jesus' death provides salvation. I don't really get the metaphysics of it.

Not having a Bible is not a problem. There are plenty available on the Internet. Try this site:

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Just enter the reference, like John 3:16, in the search box to see a verse, John 3 will give you the whole chapter, etc. You can also step through a book one chapter at a time. The default Bible version is for the New International Version (NIV) which is pretty easy to read, but there are other versions available too.

Thanks for that.

[doubting_tommy]

The creation reveals a God who is all powerful, all knowing and is present everywhere at once. The creator is always greater than the creation. Understanding how nature reveals God is like being lost in dark cave and suddenly seeing a pinhole of light. If you move in the direction of the light, it should lead you to freedom. If you ignore the light, you are doomed to remain lost.

Nature points you to God who created it. But if you ignore the witness of nature, you will be doomed to remain lost and without God. The worst part about that is that you are still accountable to God whether you believe He is real or not. Disbelieving in God isn't going to make Him go away. So while you can justify your unbelief to your own satisfaction, you still have to face the inevitable day when you will stand before Him and give an account of yourself.

While I don't believe that we can infer the kinds of qualities you describe, even assuming that that is correct for the sake of argument, we're still very far away from the God of the Bible.

There is nothing in nature alone, for example, which suggests that the Creator of the Universe cares whether I believe in it or not. For that, I need the Bible.

When we consider the atmosphere, the lithosphere the biosphere and the hydrosphere, and if we are willing to contemplate the possibility that an intelligent creator is the causal agent for all of them, the question is what kind of creator could have done all of this? It would have taken a creator that is greater than what he has created. It would take a creator far greater in intelligence than us (we are still discovering things about our world), greater in power and also one who possesses an infinite presence in order to sustain and guide all of it at once.

The uniform and consistent order of the universe speaks to a plan and a purposee. The movement of planets and stars are very predictable, the order of the seasons, the way the biological life interacts and adapts to the changes of the seasons and changes of environment. There is a program to it all.

Sure, it won't reveal God in the same way the Bible does. It isn't meant to. It points to a creator, though. It points you in the right direction, just like the pinhole of light in the dark cave. The natural world gives you a point of departure on your journey to seek God. It is the starting point, if you will. Nature reveals that it has a Creator, and it is the Bible that tells who that Creator is and His desire to be in relationship/fellowship with you.

In theological circles, we speak of "general revelation" to refer to the witness of the created order. General revelation is what we can see and know about God through the natural world. We also speak of "special revelation" which is what can be known about God through the Scriptures, the Bible. Both work in tandem with each other. Many who reject the general revelation in nature, also reject the special revelation found in Scripture. I have never run into anyone that accepts one without the other.

Right, but loads of people believe in a God with those qualities for precisely the reasons you give, but most of those people don't believe in the same God as the God of the Bible. My understanding was that these people would still go to Hell.

[doubting_tommy]

Sorry, I thought I had answered that. My intuition is that people could be accountable for rejecting God, but I don't see how people could be accountable for rejecting God in cases where they don't have access to the information necessary to accept God. I think everyone here seems to agree with that (as I understand what has been explained to me so far, the claim is that everybody has the information necessary to accept God, even in cases where they have no access to the Bible).

Tommy, suppose you find the answer that explains it to you in such a way that it makes sense to you.

What would you do with this knowledge?

I would use it as part of my reflections when considering whether the God of the Bible seems to have the sorts of qualities that I would expect a perfectly moral being to have. It seems intuitively unjust to me to condemn people to Hell for all eternity, for example, but if I was able to understand how that intuition might be mistaken, it would make the God of the Bible more plausible, in my personal view.

[doubting_tommy]

I don't have a Bible to hand. The part I find difficult to understand is how exactly Jesus' death provides salvation. I don't really get the metaphysics of it.

Sin is spiritual death/separation from God. God is absolutely holy and there is no sin in God. When Adam was created, he was created sinless and in perfect relationship and fellowship with God. God is the Lifegiver and Adam had eternal life to begin with. But when Adam sinned, he was cut off from the Lifegiver and as a result he died spiritually. As a result, man has inherited from Adam a sinful nature. Adam was the federal head for all mankind in the garden and when Adam fell all mankind fell in him. He essentially poisoned the well for all of us. This separated man spiritually from God. As a result, there is a curse of death that hung over the head of all mankind. The only way for the relationship to be restored is for God’s justice against sin to be satisfied. God is holy and just in an absolute way. And it is the justness and holiness that stand at the center of a perfect system of divine justice that demands sin to be punished. A penalty must be paid and that pentalty is death. The problem is that mankind cannot die for his own sin. If all of humanity were to die for their sin, it would not be enough. The problem comes from us. So the solution cannot come from us. The solution to the problem of sin must come from somewhere outside of us.

What man needs is a sinless person to die for him. Someone whose sacrifice God will accept on our behalf and pay the penalty for us in full. That is where Jesus comes in.

Jesus, who was/is God in the flesh came to earth to undo what Adam did. Jesus was the federal head for all mankind on the cross. The Bible tells us in Rom. 5:12-21 that Jesus was the “last Adam.” It tells us that Jesus’ sinless obedience satisfied the justice of God and paid the pentalty for the curse of death that hung over the head of corporate humanity.

Once God’s justice was satisfied, we were redeemed from the curse of death and the way of salvation was opened up for us. God accepted what Jesus did on our behalf on the basis of Jesus death on the cross, God extends the offer of salvation to anyone willing to accept it. Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection opened up the way to God. Jesus is the way to God. It is through Him that are able to finally have a relationship with our Creator.

It is a free gift that we cannot be good enough to merit and we cannot earn by anything we do. All we need to do is reach out and accept it.

None of us know the nuts and bolts about every pertaining to how salvation was made possible. I simply gave you what the Bible says. It is a mystery, but that should not stop you from receiving salvation. I use a lot of things in my day to day life that I cannot explain. That doesn’t stop me from using ATMs, using a flash drive or turning on a computer. I can’t explain the mechanics of how my car works, but not understanding that doesn’t stop me from driving.

Thanks, that was very comprehensive. I'll have to ponder it, obviously, since it's pretty complicated stuff (at least to me).

[nebula]

Tommy, suppose you find the answer that explains it to you in such a way that it makes sense to you.

What would you do with this knowledge?

I would use it as part of my reflections when considering whether the God of the Bible seems to have the sorts of qualities that I would expect a perfectly moral being to have. It seems intuitively unjust to me to condemn people to Hell for all eternity, for example, but if I was able to understand how that intuition might be mistaken, it would make the God of the Bible more plausible, in my personal view.

OK.

How do you know that your perception of what a perfectly moral being should be like is correct?

[doubting_tommy]

Tommy, suppose you find the answer that explains it to you in such a way that it makes sense to you.

What would you do with this knowledge?

I would use it as part of my reflections when considering whether the God of the Bible seems to have the sorts of qualities that I would expect a perfectly moral being to have. It seems intuitively unjust to me to condemn people to Hell for all eternity, for example, but if I was able to understand how that intuition might be mistaken, it would make the God of the Bible more plausible, in my personal view.

OK.

How do you know that your perception of what a perfectly moral being should be like is correct?

I don't - I might be completely wrong. I don't think we can step outside of our intuitions though (although our intuitions can change after lots of careful reflection).

[Guest shiloh357]

The creation reveals a God who is all powerful, all knowing and is present everywhere at once. The creator is always greater than the creation. Understanding how nature reveals God is like being lost in dark cave and suddenly seeing a pinhole of light. If you move in the direction of the light, it should lead you to freedom. If you ignore the light, you are doomed to remain lost.

Nature points you to God who created it. But if you ignore the witness of nature, you will be doomed to remain lost and without God. The worst part about that is that you are still accountable to God whether you believe He is real or not. Disbelieving in God isn't going to make Him go away. So while you can justify your unbelief to your own satisfaction, you still have to face the inevitable day when you will stand before Him and give an account of yourself.

While I don't believe that we can infer the kinds of qualities you describe, even assuming that that is correct for the sake of argument, we're still very far away from the God of the Bible.

There is nothing in nature alone, for example, which suggests that the Creator of the Universe cares whether I believe in it or not. For that, I need the Bible.

When we consider the atmosphere, the lithosphere the biosphere and the hydrosphere, and if we are willing to contemplate the possibility that an intelligent creator is the causal agent for all of them, the question is what kind of creator could have done all of this? It would have taken a creator that is greater than what he has created. It would take a creator far greater in intelligence than us (we are still discovering things about our world), greater in power and also one who possesses an infinite presence in order to sustain and guide all of it at once.

The uniform and consistent order of the universe speaks to a plan and a purposee. The movement of planets and stars are very predictable, the order of the seasons, the way the biological life interacts and adapts to the changes of the seasons and changes of environment. There is a program to it all.

Sure, it won't reveal God in the same way the Bible does. It isn't meant to. It points to a creator, though. It points you in the right direction, just like the pinhole of light in the dark cave. The natural world gives you a point of departure on your journey to seek God. It is the starting point, if you will. Nature reveals that it has a Creator, and it is the Bible that tells who that Creator is and His desire to be in relationship/fellowship with you.

In theological circles, we speak of "general revelation" to refer to the witness of the created order. General revelation is what we can see and know about God through the natural world. We also speak of "special revelation" which is what can be known about God through the Scriptures, the Bible. Both work in tandem with each other. Many who reject the general revelation in nature, also reject the special revelation found in Scripture. I have never run into anyone that accepts one without the other.

Right, but loads of people believe in a God with those qualities for precisely the reasons you give, but most of those people don't believe in the same God as the God of the Bible. My understanding was that these people would still go to Hell.

No, loads of people do not believe a god with the above qualities. There are religions like Buddhism that are not based on a belief in any deity at all. The god of the Muslims is nothing like I described. The deities of Hinduism do not reflect the qualities I mentioned above. The ancient pagans had no concept of an all-knowing all powerful god. None of their gods were viewed in that way. I doubt you really have any appreciable knowledge of what other religions teach. Much of what is out there also teaches that the "divine" is in nature and that the universe is god or is a collective "god" consciousness. So you really need to rethink your statement about what other people believe.

Romans chapter 1 tells us that even though they have the witness of creation, they reject that witness and instead turn to serving nature itself. The pagans had no concept of an all-knowing, all powerful deity. They simply made gods out of the water, wind, earth, fire, etc. They began worshipping the creation instead of the Creator that nature told them exists. This has led them in to all kinds of perversity like homosexuality and so forth. They are not innocent people who had no knowledge at all of the true God. They rejected that knowledge and chose to serve deities that exist in their imaginations.

[doubting_tommy]

No, loads of people do not believe a god with the above qualities. There are religions like Buddhism that are not based on a belief in any deity at all. The god of the Muslims is nothing like I described. The deities of Hinduism do not reflect the qualities I mentioned above. The ancient pagans had no concept of an all-knowing all powerful god. None of their gods were viewed in that way. I doubt you really have any appreciable knowledge of what other religions teach. Much of what is out there also teaches that the "divine" is in nature and that the universe is god or is a collective "god" consciousness. So you really need to rethink your statement about what other people believe.

I was under the impression that Muslims believe that Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present. Some Deists believe this too, as do members of the Bahá'í and Sikh faiths.