A question of ethics

[Guest]

Just To Give Us An Idea Of What We Are Discussing

$6.67 Is The Daily Benefits From Food Stamps Per Person

http://www.scottjose...od-stamp-budget

$7.00 Is The Average Daily Cost Of Food (?) Per Person

http://www.nytimes.c...4well.html?_r=0

Average Monthly Food Stamp Benefits Per Person, FY2012

http://www.stateheal...sp?cat=1&ind=26

Those are interesting numbers Joe, I never heard them before or bothered to figure them out

The sounded possible low to me, but as said, I had never looked into it. Here in California, they look at your expenses and income to determine you eligibility and benefit allowance. In an actual example, ( example family where one member did in fact do the bake sale thing that this question comes from) a family of four people, having an income of of only $250 a month, is getting $455 in monthly benefits. This family has no mortgage or rent payment to make, so that probably is considered like an income, since they do not have that expense as most people do. Now that is $455 / 30.4375 days per month =$14.95 per day / 4 persons = $3.73 per person per day. In fact, this family does quite well on the amount of food, and 3 of the 4 people are large people, all adults. Occasionally they run out of money a few days before the send of the month, but never out of food (there is always some still left in the refrigerator and cupboards.

So, this family id getting by just fine on 56% of the average you cited - and this in Southern California, which is not know for low costs.

Based on knowledge of this families habits and budget, I am inclined to think that $6.67 per day figure, could be substantially reduced, saving the tax payers quite a bit of money. If this family can eat well (and it does) on $3.73 per day, then the families spending $6.77 a day, must be having a few sirloin steaks, a gallon of ice cream a well, a bunch of cookies, Hostess fruit pies, and too many bags of potato chips or something.

If it were up to me, I would lower the average amount, and provided some guidance on how to have delicious and healthy food on limited means. I find the system odd, that you can buy chewing gum and diet soda (zero nutritional value one food stamp. but you cannot buy one of those roasted chickens for $5 (because it is heated).

While numbers are interesting, they are not really relevant to the question of the poll.

I have not voted in the poll, and had mixed feelings about it. After reading some of the replies, all of which are very good and well presented and thought out I think, I am ready to cast my vote (I think) and will likely go for number 2.

My thinking is, that the family has been gifted the food, it is theirs. If they want to cut corners to make some bake sale item, then they may do so, just like any other family. I doubt that most people would object, to a family on food stamps offering a visiting guest one of those diet sodas, in in that case, the 'food' is not being used for the benefit of the family receiving the benefits. The principle is the same.

Now I admit, that the intention of the program and the sensitivities of the tax payers should be considered. If it is deemed improper, to use the food for purposes other than (I am already rethinking this as I type though) feeding the family, then that should be written into the rules of the program, there are no such restrictions.

This brings up another issue though. In the case of this example family, only three persons in the household are qualified to receive food stamps. One of them is ineligible, because they are a full time student. I think the reasoning is, that if they have time to go to school, then they have time to work, lol. Of course everyone else in the family has time to work as well, so who knows what the thinking is. Now, considering that the system intended to feed only the three, is the family some how cheating the system, by sharing the food with the other family member?

In a chat discussion one time, I also floated the idea, of the family buying seeds (allowed in the system specifically) to raise their own crops. Everyone was fine with that. However, if the family were to take some of their extra grown food, and sell it to neighbors or at a local farmer's market, that idea was met with resistance. Apparently, it is immoral to take government (taxpayer) money, and then add some hard work to it, to increase the value of the benefit, and help the family out more than if they sat around watching TV all day, instead of engaging in productive labor. It is argued, that just as you cannot purchase food with food stamps and resell it, you cannot sell your produce from the seeds. If I had to argue the case to allow the farming scenario, I would say that the family is not selling the seeds of a profit, they are selling the cost of water they paid for, and fertilized, pest control, implements etc, and is what produced the income, However, to be fair, the family should have to pay back the cost of one seed, for each tomato they sell.

I guess I am still not settled on how I will vote, so please, continue to vote and include your thoughts, very interesting exercise.

[Guest]

I guess I am still not settled on how I will vote, so please, continue to vote and include your thoughts, very interesting exercise.

Read This Link To See Just What The Food Is

That Many Of These Families Eat..... Very Interesting....

http://www.scottjose...od-stamp-budget

[ayin jade]

Another Take (Two Issues)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Galatians 5:22-23

What is Public Assistance and/or Food Stamp fraud?

Public Assistance or Food Stamp fraud is the intentional misrepresentation, concealment or withholding of information in order to get any, or increased, public assistance or food stamp benefits. If you intentionally sign any papers (such as an application for benefits, a questionnaire, or recertification papers) in which the information in the papers is not true, you have committed fraud. This is true even if you never end up receiving any public assistance or food stamps at all. http://209.203.251.6...efits/fraud.htm

So Do You Really Think A Food Stamp Fraud Investigator

Might Clear The Table Of A Local Church Potluck

And Pry The Food From Between The Teeth

Of The Little Children

As A Recovery Of Ineligible Benefits

Or The Miss-Use Of Food Stamp

Food To Feed Folk

At The Table?

Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. Proverbs 26:20

Beloved I Really Really Doubt It

~

Just Like The Selling Of The Food Stamps Themselves

The Selling Of Food Stamp Food

(IMO) Is Fraud

Period

Love Your Brother Joe

The issue isnt whether or not you would/could get caught. Its whether or not it is right or wrong to use it in such a manner. Since doing so is technically fraud, then it is wrong to do so.

[ayin jade]

My thinking is, that the family has been gifted the food, it is theirs.

It is not a gift. It is public assistance with conditions and for a specific purpose. People give gifts. Government does not.

[The_Patriot21]

Im against them using the food for a bake sale, the food is intended, to feed people, not to generate a profit, even if its for someone else. Now, if someone brings home food bought with food stamps, and they have extra, and their neigbor is hungry and/or in need of food, then by all means share the food-but for a bake sale? no thats misuse of them if you ask me. Food stamps also shouldn't be accepted in restaurants, or even with some of the more expensive foods, in my opinion. Basic necessities, healthy food, store brand only stuff, and maybe a few extras but not a lot, and stuff like diapers. Just my opinion on it.

[ayin jade]

Please understand. My responses are not in judgment of that family but more what I think I should or shouldnt do if I was in that place. I recently read some pharmacy law ce that I am required to read for my license, that mentions medicare and how things we would not normally think is a problem, such as merely missing certain information in submitting the claim to medicare, is technically fraud and abuse of medicare. The feds are now authorizing independent groups to find fraud, even if it comes at the expense of a missing period in the submission, for which they are rewarded by a percentage of the dollars they recover for medicare. I take a strict view of what can be done with public assistance. Fraud is fraud. No matter if it is a nickel or millions of dollars.

[Guest man]

Matthew 5

⁷ Blessed are the merciful,

For they shall obtain mercy.

[nebula]

My initial inclination is to think it would be a violation -

Until I considered that this money spent on the bake sale cannot be used for their personal needs. So either they have to pay more out-of-pocket for their own food or cut back on what they purchase for themselves.

Right?

[Guest]

Another Take (Two Issues)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Galatians 5:22-23

What is Public Assistance and/or Food Stamp fraud?

Public Assistance or Food Stamp fraud is the intentional misrepresentation, concealment or withholding of information in order to get any, or increased, public assistance or food stamp benefits. If you intentionally sign any papers (such as an application for benefits, a questionnaire, or recertification papers) in which the information in the papers is not true, you have committed fraud. This is true even if you never end up receiving any public assistance or food stamps at all. http://209.203.251.6...efits/fraud.htm

So Do You Really Think A Food Stamp Fraud Investigator

Might Clear The Table Of A Local Church Potluck

And Pry The Food From Between The Teeth

Of The Little Children

As A Recovery Of Ineligible Benefits

Or The Miss-Use Of Food Stamp

Food To Feed Folk

At The Table?

Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth. Proverbs 26:20

Beloved I Really Really Doubt It

~

Just Like The Selling Of The Food Stamps Themselves

The Selling Of Food Stamp Food

(IMO) Is Fraud

Period

Love Your Brother Joe

The issue isn't whether or not you would/could get caught. Its whether or not it is right or wrong to use it in such a manner. Since doing so is technically fraud, then it is wrong to do so.

Food On The Family Table Is The Idea

Potlucks Are The Family Table

With Left-Overs Likely

Check Out This To See The Struggle These Families Have

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/04/health/nutrition/04well.html?_r=1&

Food Into Money Isn't

And It Is Fraud

Period

[Guest]

I agree in principle that there is an intended purpose. However, there is also the matter that the conditions are spelled out, as to what you can and cannot do, and what sonstitutes fraud, there is in essence, a contract. Fraud, is very specific, and has do do with whether or not facts are misrepresented to obtain that benefit, since that is not the case there is not fraud.

However, looking over the list of responsibilites on the site, I find this line:

"Not sell, trade, or give away your CalFresh benefits, or any CalFresh cards or documents. Therefore, not only can this young woman not offer these at a bake sale, she cannot even eat the food that the family eats, because she is a full time student. The rest of the family, are not allowed to eat less and share with her, she has to find food on her own.

So, I know how I am voting now.